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Post by paradox on May 29, 2018 15:53:33 GMT
Yeah, and I guess she Martyrs those too, amirite? Martyr all the things. And also doesnt get killed from all the shield guards she martyrs. And Martyr the troops youll have hit. She literally has an undying force, and youll never deliver anything to her. I know your being sarcastic here but sadly that’s not an innacurate analysis of what she does. Her attrition game is...really stronk. Her force may not be undying but certain prices of it can feel like they are unkillable. (Punch monks and Champs) You need specific tools to deal certain aspects of her general kit and list construction, it’s really hard for a decent number of factions and lists to deal with her. my issue with her is not that she has counters, it’s that she is super gear checky. If punch monks and champs are hard, youre doing it wrong. There are plenty of ways around this stuff. It’s really not hard to overwhelm Martyrdom. Yes, she’s strong. No worse than easily a dozen other samples, as noted above. Back to the original point of this debate - heal access to healing options is not too strong.
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Post by paradox on May 29, 2018 16:05:26 GMT
I'll be gaming tonight. Someone give me the best Harbie list, I'll see if I can keep all the things from dying.
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Post by oncomingstorm on May 29, 2018 16:12:08 GMT
I know your being sarcastic here but sadly that’s not an innacurate analysis of what she does. Her attrition game is...really stronk. Her force may not be undying but certain prices of it can feel like they are unkillable. (Punch monks and Champs) You need specific tools to deal certain aspects of her general kit and list construction, it’s really hard for a decent number of factions and lists to deal with her. my issue with her is not that she has counters, it’s that she is super gear checky. If punch monks and champs are hard, youre doing it wrong. There are plenty of ways around this stuff. It’s really not hard to overwhelm Martyrdom. Yes, she’s strong. No worse than easily a dozen other samples, as noted above. Back to the original point of this debate - heal access to healing options is not too strong. Punch monks are hard to remove. it's literally their defining feature. No one is taking them primarily for the P+S 9 WM fists. Def 18, no KD, tough, advances when you miss it…they’re pretty much the epitome of ‘hard to remove’. Unless you brought multiple auto-hitting attacks (and outside of cygnar, this is not common tech), they are not easy to remove. They are certainly not easy to pour attacks into in order to exhaust martyrdom. As for Paladins, they are in the range of ‘highly annoying to kill’ in terms of stats. Def 13 is high enough that infantry and beasts can and will miss attacks. Arm 21 is in the range that non-charging infantry tend to fail to kill them (as do most infantry guns). Tough no-sells 1/3 of your attacks. The kinds of attacks that you need to kill pour attacks into paladins are, again, not typically the kind of attacks you can afford to spend on making sure a 3 point solo stays dead. I’ve put heavies onto paladins, and (aside from triggering 3 martyrdoms) done nothing. That’s not sustainable in a game about piece trading. With Harbinger, you either get around her defensive tech (by pulling paladins out of martyrdom, via no-healing tech, or by pushing harbinger aways), or you kill her while largely ignoring any part of her army that you don’t actively need to engage with. If you don’t have the capacity to do one of those two things, it’s a slow grind to a largely inevitable loss, unless the Harby player plays like a potato.
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Post by paradox on May 29, 2018 16:17:12 GMT
This good enough? I checked DVI. I dont have forgeguard or a 2nd idrian unit. But none of the lists have VoJ either, so the healing is already not nearly as advertised.
Theme: The Faithful Masses 3 / 3 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army
The Harbinger of Menoth - WJ: +24 - Hierophant - PC: 3 - Devout - PC: 9 (Battlegroup Points Used: 9) - Templar - PC: 15 (Battlegroup Points Used: 15)
Allegiant of the Order of the Fist - PC: 3 Allegiant of the Order of the Fist - PC: 3 Champion of the Order of the Wall - PC: 8 - Champion of the Order of the Wall (Continued) Champion of the Order of the Wall - PC: 8 - Champion of the Order of the Wall (Continued) The Covenant of Menoth - PC: 0 High Paladin Dartan Vilmon - PC: 0 Paladin of the Order of the Wall - PC: 4 Paladin of the Order of the Wall - PC: 4 Paladin of the Order of the Wall - PC: 4 Wrack - PC: 1 Anastasia di Bray - PC: 3
Choir of Menoth - Leader & 3 Grunts: 4 Idrian Skirmishers - Leader & 9 Grunts: 15 - Idrian Skirmisher Chieftain & Guide - Chieftain & Guide: 0 Holy Zealots - Leader & 9 Grunts: 12 - Monolith Bearer - PC: 3
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Post by paradox on May 29, 2018 16:19:19 GMT
If punch monks and champs are hard, youre doing it wrong. There are plenty of ways around this stuff. It’s really not hard to overwhelm Martyrdom. Yes, she’s strong. No worse than easily a dozen other samples, as noted above. Back to the original point of this debate - heal access to healing options is not too strong. Punch monks are hard to remove. it's literally their defining feature. No one is taking them primarily for the P+S 9 WM fists. Def 18, no KD, tough, advances when you miss it…they’re pretty much the epitome of ‘hard to remove’. Unless you brought multiple auto-hitting attacks (and outside of cygnar, this is not common tech), they are not easy to remove. They are certainly not easy to pour attacks into in order to exhaust martyrdom. As for Paladins, they are in the range of ‘highly annoying to kill’ in terms of stats. Def 13 is high enough that infantry and beasts can and will miss attacks. Arm 21 is in the range that non-charging infantry tend to fail to kill them (as do most infantry guns). Tough no-sells 1/3 of your attacks. The kinds of attacks that you need to kill pour attacks into paladins are, again, not typically the kind of attacks you can afford to spend on making sure a 3 point solo stays dead. I’ve put heavies onto paladins, and (aside from triggering 3 martyrdoms) done nothing. That’s not sustainable in a game about piece trading. With Harbinger, you either get around her defensive tech (by pulling paladins out of martyrdom, via no-healing tech, or by pushing harbinger aways), or you kill her while largely ignoring any part of her army that you don’t actively need to engage with. If you don’t have the capacity to do one of those two things, it’s a slow grind to a largely inevitable loss, unless the Harby player plays like a potato. I mean, I've owned Harbie since 2005? I kinda know how she plays.
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moquan
Junior Strategist
Posts: 193
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Post by moquan on May 29, 2018 16:21:21 GMT
Maybe change a Paladin for Rhupert to charge over your wall for an assassination? Exchange Anastasia for a reclaimer for futuresight on Harby during the A-run or for Ashenveil on a monk.
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Post by jisidro on May 29, 2018 16:28:07 GMT
Not all the things. The important things.
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Post by macdaddy on May 29, 2018 16:32:13 GMT
I'll be gaming tonight. Someone give me the best Harbie list, I'll see if I can keep all the things from dying. Well i am not sold either that the healing is worth it, typically the hierophant and her camp is enough anyway. I recomend proxying forgeguard, you really need them in the FM build to crack arm. Here is the list a local runs to great effect: (if I am remembering it correctly!) Also How are punch monks and champs not hard! Champs are super tough without martyrdom around as is Monks as well! (Ill admit though,...I do love my super solos...) conflictchamber.com/#c2201b_-0Om11U1r243q3k3kjCjC3E3r3C2_iq3O3G3HProtectorate Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] The Faithful Masses !!! Your army contains a CID entry. [Harbinger 1] The Harbinger of Menoth [+28] - Crusader [10] - Devout [9] - Templar [15] - Hierophant [3] Allegiant of the Order of the Fist [3] Allegiant of the Order of the Fist [3] Champion of the Order of the Wall [8] Champion of the Order of the Wall [8] High Paladin Dartan Vilmon [6] Paladin of the Order of the Wall [0(4)] The Covenant of Menoth [0(4)] Choir of Menoth (min) [4] Horgenhold Forge Guard (max) [16] - Attendant Priest [3] Idrian Skirmishers (max) [15] - Idrian Skirmisher Chieftain & Guide [0(5)] Have fun
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on May 29, 2018 16:41:19 GMT
Maybe change a Paladin for Rhupert to charge over your wall for an assassination? Exchange Anastasia for a reclaimer for futuresight on Harby during the A-run or for Ashenveil on a monk. I wouldn't change my list structure to enable plan Q at a penalty to plan A. Harbingers assassination is nasty but intentionally setting it up would be risky at best. By all means bring Rhupert but use him for tough or pathfinder on your army.
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Cyel
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Cyel on May 29, 2018 17:09:15 GMT
This good enough? I checked DVI. I dont have forgeguard or a 2nd idrian unit. But none of the lists have VoJ either, so the healing is already not nearly as advertised. Theme: The Faithful Masses 3 / 3 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army The Harbinger of Menoth - WJ: +24 - Hierophant - PC: 3 - Devout - PC: 9 (Battlegroup Points Used: 9) - Templar - PC: 15 (Battlegroup Points Used: 15) Allegiant of the Order of the Fist - PC: 3 Allegiant of the Order of the Fist - PC: 3 Champion of the Order of the Wall - PC: 8 - Champion of the Order of the Wall (Continued) Champion of the Order of the Wall - PC: 8 - Champion of the Order of the Wall (Continued) The Covenant of Menoth - PC: 0 High Paladin Dartan Vilmon - PC: 0 Paladin of the Order of the Wall - PC: 4 Paladin of the Order of the Wall - PC: 4 Paladin of the Order of the Wall - PC: 4 Wrack - PC: 1 Anastasia di Bray - PC: 3 Choir of Menoth - Leader & 3 Grunts: 4 Idrian Skirmishers - Leader & 9 Grunts: 15 - Idrian Skirmisher Chieftain & Guide - Chieftain & Guide: 0 Holy Zealots - Leader & 9 Grunts: 12 - Monolith Bearer - PC: 3
You indeed need Dwarves, the theme lacks Weapon Master units, which are necessary with so few jacks.
A regular Reclaimer's Ashen Veil synergises nicely with Awe and good DEF models against a living army. He can gather souls from any attack, so you can kill your own models to get them (for exmple surplus Choir). We had our other WTC veteran pull his hair out of frustration of trying to deal with a DEF 22 Allegiant with his Skorne. Ashen Veil on Harby or accompanying models also makes melee attempts at CK more difficult or in case of unboostable ones, irrelevant.
You may also try another battlegroup of two Crusaders and a Devout. Fewer Shield Guards but more punch and you have two large bases to block LOS to Harby if needed.
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Choco
Junior Strategist
Gorten, best feet in the game.
Posts: 571
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Post by Choco on May 29, 2018 18:20:52 GMT
After reading all of this and after playing some games last night (with Sevvy1, so I got some help from Eye), I still think that Idrians can crack armor just fine with the assistance of all the paladins. I had Vilmon and a paladin take out Nightmare in 4 hits. So I'm not super concerned about that portion of this list. So with these ideas in place, here's an experiment of a list (note, this includes CID models): conflictchamber.com/#c2201b_-0Om11rl_3U3q3k3kjCjC3E7y3r3r3r3s303G3HProtectorate Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] The Faithful Masses !!! Your army contains CID entries. [Harbinger 1] The Harbinger of Menoth [+28] - Devout [9] - Indictor [14] - Sanctifier [14] - Hierophant [3] Allegiant of the Order of the Fist [3] Allegiant of the Order of the Fist [3] Champion of the Order of the Wall [8] Champion of the Order of the Wall [8] High Paladin Dartan Vilmon [0(6)] Orin Midwinter, Rogue Inquisitor [5] Paladin of the Order of the Wall [4] Paladin of the Order of the Wall [4] Paladin of the Order of the Wall [4] Reclaimer Gatekeeper [3] Choir of Menoth (max) [6] Idrian Skirmishers (max) [15] - Idrian Skirmisher Chieftain & Guide [0(5)] The only part I am worried about is possibly a lack of bodies (I like running double Idrians these days, so this looks small to me, lol). EDIT: Just noticed this version has a full unit of Choir. Don't need a full unit. I could swap out a full unit for a min unit, a Wrack and a Mechanik.
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Post by paradox on May 29, 2018 18:39:23 GMT
I dunno. Cutting to a single shield guard, no VoJ, and no wracks sounds like a whole lotta “not in this list” from all the dojo slung above......
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Choco
Junior Strategist
Gorten, best feet in the game.
Posts: 571
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Post by Choco on May 29, 2018 18:47:09 GMT
I dunno. Cutting to a single shield guard, no VoJ, and no wracks sounds like a whole lotta “not in this list” from all the dojo slung above...... I have a Devout and Vilmon as Shield Guards. VoJ is not available in FM. I noticed I could squeeze in a Wrack and a Mechanik, as noted above. It's an idea of a list, but after reading some of the battle reports from Let's Try PoM, I might have to rethink all of this. I've never wanted to try min units of Idrians, but I might have to try them out now.
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Post by paradox on May 29, 2018 19:13:03 GMT
I dunno. Cutting to a single shield guard, no VoJ, and no wracks sounds like a whole lotta “not in this list” from all the dojo slung above...... I have a Devout and Vilmon as Shield Guards. VoJ is not available in FM. I noticed I could squeeze in a Wrack and a Mechanik, as noted above. It's an idea of a list, but after reading some of the battle reports from Let's Try PoM, I might have to rethink all of this. I've never wanted to try min units of Idrians, but I might have to try them out now. It was a general comment, not a direct reply to you. Basically, I thnk the proposition that Harbie has too much healing is a bill of goods.
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Post by paradox on May 29, 2018 20:08:23 GMT
The more I look at these lists, aren’t you just better off playing Vindy in EI? No hoop jumping to protect stuff early, or shoe-horing in Pathfinder or weapon masters. Unless you play into lots of magic guns, which you fix with pairing.
I mean, maybe its just me, but that sounds alot easier for the same result.
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