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Post by thegreatgavu on May 8, 2018 13:04:26 GMT
Hey folks,
My meta (6 players; Khador, Menoth, Cryx, Legion & Trolls) is currently dominated by infantry spam; we play 2 list pairings fixed for 5 weeks and I've been particularly struggling since Xmas with Menoth (Errants) and Khador (Doom Reavers & Winter Guard).
I keep trying to make balanced lists and consistently get my arse handed to me. Charging weapon-masters rinse Posse and beasts alike and I can't meaningfully out-threat my opponents. It's particularly bad when I lose the starting roll off and I'm getting charged by 20+ guys top of turn 2 - or losing on scenario because I hang back.
Last game I tried out a Vault for the first time and it was a dream - 1 almost single handidly ate a unit of Errants, even when the Menoth player collected his own souls and passed a lot of tough checks.
I still lost though as the rest of the army couldn't churn through the other 30 guys. So I'm thinking it's time to drop double Vault... at the very least, I'm hoping it might start keeping people honest and force the other players into using more balanced lists.
My list idea so far; Minion Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] The Blindwater Congregation
(Jaga-Jaga 1) Jaga-Jaga, the Death Charmer [+27] - Blackhide Wrastler [16] - Bull Snapper [0(5)] - Ironback Spitter [14] - Gatorman Soul Slave [0(5)] Bone Shrine [2] Gobber Tinker [2] Gobber Tinker [2] Totem Hunter [0(6)] Croak Raiders (max) [16] Croak Raiders (max) [16] Sacral Vault [17] Sacral Vault [17]
Simple playstyle; Jaga-Jaga uses S&P to improve the various shooty elements whilst Totem Hunter is there to harass or grab a flag with Grave Wind.
Can anyone give any advice on how best to run a list like this? And is Jaga-Jaga the best caster? (I'm assuming the volume of attacks makes S&P a great buff choice here). And is there an obvious pairing? (Currently running with a typical Maelok phalanx of 3 units of Posse).
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draycos
Junior Strategist
Posts: 167
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Post by draycos on May 8, 2018 14:01:38 GMT
In theory... an "unbalanced list" (meaning a skew, in this case infantry) should have a weakness as big as it's strength. Having played a fair bit of exemplar, I think my biggest concern was shooting. If one Sacral Vault did good work for you then trying two might be the answer?
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Post by critfreeze on May 8, 2018 15:33:44 GMT
My biggest suggestion for your list would be to drop the pair of Tinkers for Kwaak & Gub. I think he's worth taking any time your list features at least 1 Ironback Spitter, just because Enliven is so good on the Spitter. I imagine the tinkers are in there to repair your Vaults, but the thing about Battle Engines is that they don't lose systems or aspects when they get damaged, so repairing them is less useful.
Other than that, it looks like a total meat grinder that I certainly wouldn't want to run Iron Fangs into.
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Post by thegreatgavu on May 8, 2018 15:46:33 GMT
My biggest suggestion for your list would be to drop the pair of Tinkers for Kwaak & Gub. I think he's worth taking any time your list features at least 1 Ironback Spitter, just because Enliven is so good on the Spitter. I imagine the tinkers are in there to repair your Vaults, but the thing about Battle Engines is that they don't lose systems or aspects when they get damaged, so repairing them is less useful. That's a fair point and well worth testing. My concern was that I don't have any protection against enemy shooting in the list and I was worried the Vaults might slowly get chipped away. Thinking about it Kwaak & Gub also benefit from the Vault's +2 to Spell attack aura, so they can also provide more anti-infantry firepower. On the topic of anti-shooting, the Croaks are vulnerable to enemy shooting (depending on terrain). Another thing I'm considering is dropping the Bone Shrine for a Bellows Crew; difficult to see what utility Jaga-Jaga gets from the Bone Shrine when she wants to sit back and the Soul Slave can hand out Ghost Walk.
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Post by apoc2148 on May 8, 2018 19:31:40 GMT
If you can change casters, Calaban is pretty amazing at clearing off enemy infantry that isn't protected from spells. During his feat turn, with double croak raiders and a sac vault you should be easily able to clear off 15-30 light infantry models off the table. Tough can always throw a wrench in his fury generation during his feat, but overall he can deal with infantry well. He also brings to the table some anti-shooting tech via occultation. Granted it is only for one unit/model but that could be enough. It is hard to argue against S&P for a shooting list, it just helps so much with both damage and hitting. But Calaban has a bit of everything in his kit, upkeep removal (hexblast), arm debuff (parasite) mat fixer against living (carnivore), anti-shooting (occultation) so in the end it can come down to your playstyle. Jaga-Jaga seems to me to be more of a back line caster, up-keeping gravewind and escort while casting S&P everyturn after the 1st. Whereas Calaban wants to be just behind the front lines slinging spells from every direction via boneshrines/blindwalker. He also has 2 more WBPs for kicks.
If you want to stay with Jaga-Jaga, adding in a swamp horror or two could also help mulch through infantry. With the extra spd from escort, 4 initial attacks and 4 fury to buy more attacks with a 4" melee range it can dig itself deep into a unit and carve out most it.
My suggestion would be to remove one tinker and one vault to get kwaak and a swamp horror into the list. The bone shrine is technically a solo so it should be able to score flags and can give Jaga-jaga more flexibility on the field to toss out buffs. Not to mention you can pull a fury off of it in dire circumstances.
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Post by gobber on May 9, 2018 0:42:33 GMT
If you can change casters, Calaban is pretty amazing at clearing off enemy infantry that isn't protected from spells. While this is true, 2/3 of the matchups he mentioned (exemplars, doomreavers, winterguard) are very well protected from spells so I'm not sure that's the best solution in this case
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Post by apoc2148 on May 9, 2018 12:05:11 GMT
If you can change casters, Calaban is pretty amazing at clearing off enemy infantry that isn't protected from spells. While this is true, 2/3 of the matchups he mentioned (exemplars, doomreavers, winterguard) are very well protected from spells so I'm not sure that's the best solution in this case Exemplar errants have the mini-feat which will neuter him for a turn. With the addition of bone shrines extending Calaban's spell reach, you might be able to force him to mini-feat early to avoid getting spell'd off the table. In which case he focuses on other targets while the rest of the list kills the errants. Menoth in general I think would give Calaban some issues with the choir as well. We have one menoth player in our local meta but he never comes out to play much anymore so I really haven't had a chance to drop Calaban into menoth much. Doomreavers will be an issue for him, but luckily they have fairly low stats and will die (barring tough rolls) to the rest of the shooting in the list. Anti-magic is his Achilles heel, but with crafty play you should be able to make the most of his abilities most turns.
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Post by Gaston on May 9, 2018 14:50:35 GMT
I would point out, Calaban does not help the Croaks hit, while Jaga does.
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Post by apoc2148 on May 9, 2018 15:04:12 GMT
I would point out, Calaban does not help the Croaks hit, while Jaga does. It is hard to argue against S&P for a shooting list, it just helps so much with both damage and hitting. I touched on that briefly, but he can help them hit by stripping def buff upkeeps/animi that's about it. It is not quite the same as the dice manipulation you gain from S&P. It really is a tough choice between Calaban and Jaga-Jaga. Comes down to the question is Calaban's toolbox spell list better than S&P. But this is starting to get off topic. If you'd like to continue this over on the Calaban Tactica thread I started I'd love to have a discussion about Calaban vs Jaga-Jaga.
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Post by thegreatgavu on May 9, 2018 16:12:04 GMT
Thanks for the comments folks. The feedback regards Calaban is certainly worth looking into, I am worried about how clock-heavy his feat might be though which is why I haven't tried him yet.
Based on feedback (and my own additional thoughts), I'm going to run the following list;
Minion Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] The Blindwater Congregation
(Jaga-Jaga 1) Jaga-Jaga, the Death Charmer [+27] - Blackhide Wrastler [16] - Bull Snapper [0(5)] - Ironback Spitter [14] - Gatorman Soul Slave [0(5)] Kwaak Slickspine & Gub, Croak Sorcerers [4] Totem Hunter [0(6)] Croak Raiders (max) [16] Croak Raiders (max) [16] Swamp Gobbers Bellows Crew [2] Sacral Vault [17] Sacral Vault [17]
One suggestion made to me elsewhere was that I could ditch Totem Hunter and put Grave Wind on Kwaak & Gub to help their survivability. That would then free up 4 points to possibly buy back the Tinkers.
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Post by thegreatgavu on May 10, 2018 23:40:50 GMT
Played my first game with the above into the following list;
Cryx Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Infernal Machines
(Deneghra 2) Wraith Witch Deneghra [+28] - Deathjack [23] - Deathripper [6] - Deathripper [6] - Nightmare [18] - The Withershadow Combine [9] Warwitch Siren [0(4)] Warwitch Siren [0(4)] Carrion Thralls (max) [10] Carrion Thralls (max) [10] Mechanithralls (min) [6] Mechanithralls (max) [9] - Brute Thrall (3) [6]
DEPLOYMENT
Scenario was Breakdown, I lost the starting roll-off and my opponent elected to deploy first. I chose a side with 2 walls to deny them to him, he had a trench but it was quite far back from the zones.
He deployed his Jacks front and centre, Denny and her support behind them and the Carrion on either flank. The Brute Thralls ambushed.
I deployed the Vaults on either flank, the beasts in the centre and Croaks deployed directly in front of the Vaults. I tried to make sure my Croaks were all within 3" of a Vault, completely forgetting that the Vault's anti-spell ability requires souls (of which you start with 0).
TURN 1
First turn was the usual run towards one another and not much else, although he managed to use Deathjack to pin the Croaks on the left flank with a Breath Stealer which held up the Vault behind them.
The Wrastler got within his 11" threat of Deathjack whilst behind a Bellows Crew cloud and also partially screened by Croaks. Meanwhile I put the Spitter out front with Enliven and Counterblast up, and Totem Hunter next to him behind the centre forest with Grave Wind up.
TURN 2 - Cryx
Top of turn 2 my opponent ambushed the Brute Thralls unit and nearly took out a Vault; with so much new stuff to think about I'd forgotted about these guys and I was lucky to be left with 6 boxes. The rest of the unit killed a few Croaks, but the Vault was glad to get the extra souls.
Deathjack used Hellmouth on the Wrastler to kill an unfortunately placed Kwaak & Gub and a Bellows Crew member.
Nightmare slammed my Spitter, so neither Counterblast or Enliven could then trigger. Although he knocked over my Soul Slave, neither suffered much damage. Nightmare then proceeded to miss a preyed Totem Hunter, pushing him back and out of melee range.
I lost some Croaks on the other flank to an arced Hellmouth on a model outside the Vault's 3" counter-spell aura. Denny then moved out of her trench so she could have scenario presence, feated on herself and her 'jacks and camped 1 focus. This left her in threat of a Vault with 1 soul on it, and the jacks out front but basically immune to my army.
TURN 2 - Minions
Denny was out in the open, but my opponent thought safe because she was incorporeal. I had a perfect opportunity to assassinate as my opponent hadn't realised 2 things; 1) That Jaga-Jaga's feat damage is boostable 2) That Vaults can collect souls of friendly models you kill yourself.
I had Totem Hunter move within 5" of Denny then used Signs and Portents and JJs feat to blow Totem Hunter up, doing 7 damage to her after she used her camped focus to reduce the damage. JJ also blew up a Croak to take out one of the Brute Thralls.
Next up I had the damaged Vault kill the 2 remaining Brutes; nothing on that flank could now hurt it should the game go to turn 3. I then had my Croaks on the other flank all aim and shoot eachother in the back, putting the nearby Vault up to 5 souls.
Finally, the undamaged Vault moved to within range of Denny and blasted her with 2 shots (boosted to hit) which killed her.
***
I hadn't previously considered this list as having assassination potential, so I'm pleased to see it.
In some ways my opponent gave it to me by not keeping Denny in the trench, but that doesn't take away the fact the Vault is an impressive tool when opponents are relying on clouds, incorporeal or stealth to keep themselves safe from shooting.
I'm not seeing Kwaak and Gub or the Spitter as adding much, I'll test a few more games but my instinct is that a second Wrastler might offer more to the list.
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Post by critfreeze on May 12, 2018 14:46:28 GMT
Double Wrastlers seems awesome for breaking hard targets. Also: nice battle report. I'm planning to build a JJ gunline sometime in the future so I loge to read about it.
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Lbofun
BattleBox Champ
Posts: 59
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Post by Lbofun on May 12, 2018 18:21:11 GMT
I need to try this out. I ended up with 2x vaults thanks to my ebay habits. So far I have made good use of one but I have the second one just sitting on a shelf.
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Post by thegreatgavu on Jul 29, 2018 9:56:49 GMT
It's been a while since I posted this list, and my 2 Vault list has remained a feature of my list pairings. I figured I'd give an update of my playing experiences.
First, the current iteration of the list;
***
Minion Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] The Blindwater Congregation
[Jaga-Jaga 1] Jaga-Jaga, the Death Charmer [+27] - Blackhide Wrastler [16] - Blackhide Wrastler [16] - Bull Snapper [0(5)] - Gatorman Soul Slave [0(5)] Swamp Gobber River Raider [4] Totem Hunter [0(6)] Croak Raiders (max) [16] Croak Raiders (max) [16] Sacral Vault [17] Sacral Vault [17]
Basically, I've gone for River Raiders in place of Kwaak & Gub or similar options for 2 reasons; 1) Feat targets for Jaga-Jaga to blow up 2) The new 'Mirage' Steamroller scenario 3) Chaff infantry for the Vaults
***
The list has done a lot better for me than previous Jaga-Jaga lists. The stats don't look great - 1 win, 5 losses - but every game was close, where before I was getting my arse kicked most games.
Some of those close games include leaving Thagrosh2 on 1 box, and killing every Rocketeer in a single turn against a Vlad1 Winter Guard spam list. A lot of my losses I'd put down to inexperience with the list or just forgetting rules, with 1 or 2 from over-exposing JJ.
I think the main lesson I've taken away is to bring your own Souls and don't rely on collecting your opponents'. The Vaults are also pretty tough - I've only lost 3 - so if you force your opponent to concentrate using their Heavy Warbeasts to neutralise yours you can get a lot done with them mid-game.
I'm now thinking however of dropping to a single Vault list, and replacing it with Shamblers and 2 Crocpots. Shamblers are a good supply of chaff infantry for the feat (which I haven't gotten a lot of work out of in the above list) and I think overall that makes for a better 'all-comers' list.
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walden
Junior Strategist
Posts: 136
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Post by walden on Aug 3, 2018 11:57:49 GMT
War Room Army
Minions - eat dudes
Theme: The Blindwater Congregation 3 / 3 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army
Jaga-Jaga, the Death Charmer - WB: +27 - Gatorman Soul Slave - PC: 0 - Blackhide Wrastler - PC: 16 (Battlegroup Points Used: 16) - Ironback Spitter - PC: 14 (Battlegroup Points Used: 11) - Bull Snapper - PC: 0
Sacral Vault - PC: 17 Sacral Vault - PC: 17
Kwaak Slickspine & Gub, Croak Sorcerers - PC: 0 Swamp Gobber Chef - PC: 1
Croak Raiders - Leader & 9 Grunts: 16 Croak Raiders - Leader & 9 Grunts: 16 Boil Master & Spirit Cauldron - Boil Master & Spirit Cauldron: 5
THEME: The Blindwater Congregation ---
GENERATED : 08/03/2018 04:56:28 BUILD ID : 2067.18-06-10
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