Juris
Junior Strategist
Posts: 578
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Post by Juris on Jun 12, 2018 20:00:26 GMT
The Avatar sorely needs immunity to disruption I had more than one game where the Avatar kept getting knocked down or made stationary as well as getting disrupted making it a paper weight It shouldn't be that easy Here's what I don't understand. Why should the Avatar be immune to those things when other Warjacks are not?
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blakeh1
Junior Strategist
Posts: 181
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Post by blakeh1 on Jun 12, 2018 20:40:45 GMT
The Avatar sorely needs immunity to disruption I had more than one game where the Avatar kept getting knocked down or made stationary as well as getting disrupted making it a paper weight It shouldn't be that easy Here's what I don't understand. Why should the Avatar be immune to those things when other Warjacks are not? Because it is the cortex that gets disrupted. The Avatar has no cortex, thus why it cannot be in a battle group. That should be part of the trade off as well is that it cannot be disrupted. It is already a big enough drawback to not having it in a battlegroup, and not being able to use warjack points on it. So it should be treated differently from other warjacks in that respect I wasn't implying it shouldn't be able to be Knocked down or made Stationary so they are fine. The issue is really being disrupted.
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Juris
Junior Strategist
Posts: 578
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Post by Juris on Jun 12, 2018 20:49:43 GMT
Here's what I don't understand. Why should the Avatar be immune to those things when other Warjacks are not? Because it is the cortex that gets disrupted. The Avatar has no cortex, thus why it cannot be in a battle group. That should be part of the trade off as well is that it cannot be disrupted. It is already a big enough drawback to not having it in a battlegroup, and not being able to use warjack points on it. So it should be treated differently from other warjacks in that respect I wasn't implying it shouldn't be able to be Knocked down or made Stationary so they are fine. The issue is really being disrupted. It also get's 2 to 4 focus for free, and has a maximum focus load of 4 (rather than 3). The drawback of no battlegroup buffs does not come without benefits. You can also ensure it always has maximum focus by bringing two Vassals, because you can empower it. I don't see a good argument why methods of control that work on all warjacks should not also work on the Avatar? Also, where are you getting the idea that "it's the cortex that gets disrupted"? Is it in the fluff somewhere?
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martini
Junior Strategist
Posts: 119
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Post by martini on Jun 12, 2018 20:55:41 GMT
Well the benefits are not good enough for me to pick Avatar over any other character warjack. If he needs another 3 or 6 points then that is way to much.
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blakeh1
Junior Strategist
Posts: 181
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Post by blakeh1 on Jun 12, 2018 21:06:37 GMT
Because it is the cortex that gets disrupted. The Avatar has no cortex, thus why it cannot be in a battle group. That should be part of the trade off as well is that it cannot be disrupted. It is already a big enough drawback to not having it in a battlegroup, and not being able to use warjack points on it. So it should be treated differently from other warjacks in that respect I wasn't implying it shouldn't be able to be Knocked down or made Stationary so they are fine. The issue is really being disrupted. It also get's 2 to 4 focus for free, and has a maximum focus load of 4 (rather than 3). The drawback of no battlegroup buffs does not come without benefits. You can also ensure it always has maximum focus by bringing two Vassals, because you can empower it. I don't see a good argument why methods of control that work on all warjacks should not also work on the Avatar? Also, where are you getting the idea that "it's the cortex that gets disrupted"? Is it in the fluff somewhere? So I have to pay 26 points total to make sure I have 2 Vassals as well, which may or may not be needed depending on the roll I make at the start of each turn. As far as disruption's relation to the cortex, the old MK 1 rule used to be... Holy Vessel - The Avatar of Menoth is an autonomous model and may not be part of a battlegroup, or be controlled by a jack marshal. During its controller's Control Phase, the Avatar of Menoth receives d3+1 focus points. The Avatar of Menoth has no cortex, never suffers Disruption, and is immune to effects requiring a functional cortex. Disruption prevent things from being allocated FOC. The Cortext is what allows warjacks to be allocated FOC. The Avatar was different in that regards During the streamlining of rules, it became vulnerable to disruption, which I don't think it should be for both fluff reasons, and game play reasons
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Juris
Junior Strategist
Posts: 578
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Post by Juris on Jun 12, 2018 21:07:36 GMT
Well the benefits are not good enough for me to pick Avatar over any other character warjack. If he needs another 3 or 6 points then that is way to much. I'm not arguing with you about whether the Avatar is worth its points; I take no position on that (he may or may not be). I'm just arguing that I don't see a good argument why he should gain special tech that makes him immune to Disruption. Also, you don't need to spend another 3 to 6 points to make him work. But if you bring a Vassal or 2 in your list (they are valuable independent of the Avatar), and you have a turn where you need the Avatar to have 4 focus, but he only rolls 2 or 3, you can ensure that he has 4.
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Juris
Junior Strategist
Posts: 578
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Post by Juris on Jun 12, 2018 21:12:19 GMT
It also get's 2 to 4 focus for free, and has a maximum focus load of 4 (rather than 3). The drawback of no battlegroup buffs does not come without benefits. You can also ensure it always has maximum focus by bringing two Vassals, because you can empower it. I don't see a good argument why methods of control that work on all warjacks should not also work on the Avatar? Also, where are you getting the idea that "it's the cortex that gets disrupted"? Is it in the fluff somewhere? So I have to pay 26 points total to make sure I have 2 Vassals as well, which may or may not be needed depending on the roll I make at the start of each turn. As far as disruption's relation to the cortex, the old MK 1 rule used to be... Holy Vessel - The Avatar of Menoth is an autonomous model and may not be part of a battlegroup, or be controlled by a jack marshal. During its controller's Control Phase, the Avatar of Menoth receives d3+1 focus points. The Avatar of Menoth has no cortex, never suffers Disruption, and is immune to effects requiring a functional cortex. Disruption prevent things from being allocated FOC. The Cortext is what allows warjacks to be allocated FOC. The Avatar was different in that regards During the streamlining of rules, it became vulnerable to disruption, which I don't think it should be for both fluff reasons, and game play reasons As I mentioned above, you don't have to do anything, much less pay 6 points for Vassals. But if you do bring Vassals, they are useful for more than just giving focus to the Avatar. Also, it is still the only Warjack I am aware of that is completely immune to being Dominated. Even spell warding does not prevent Machine Wraiths from Dominating any other warjack. Happy? =)
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spideredd
Junior Strategist
Summer Gamer
Posts: 588
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Post by spideredd on Jun 13, 2018 0:00:03 GMT
Well the benefits are not good enough for me to pick Avatar over any other character warjack. If he needs another 3 or 6 points then that is way to much. I'm not arguing with you about whether the Avatar is worth its points; I take no position on that (he may or may not be). I'm just arguing that I don't see a good argument why he should gain special tech that makes him immune to Disruption. I'm going to point out that the Avatar was immune to disruption right up until MKIII, it was actually why I got him way back in MKI. All of his issues won't be solved simply by adding immunity to disruption to him, but at least he won't be locked down by something that he historically hasn't been locked down by. In terms of fluff, sadly, there doesn't seem to be much fluff about how disruption works, but I did find one paragraph in MKI B&W prime (PG79) that states the following: "Soon after this battle, mechaniks forged a new technology especially for Stryker. A pair of weapons with a new, innovative form of arcane disruption - a disruptor pistol and a finely smithed sword dubbed Quicksiler - was given to him, along with the official title of Commander in the King's army. The weapons emit jolts of arcane power paradoxically aligned to those a warcaster uses to control his warjacks." This implies that the connection between the warcaster and the warjack is momentarily severed while the warjack is disrupted and the Avatar doesn't have a warcaster. When I play the Avatar, he's usually locking down a flank with gaze. Adding two vassals to take him to four focus in the event of a 1 rolled are pretty much only going to empower him all battle because my other warjacks are usually far enough away to never be in range for it, so including 2 vassals just to mitigate that 1 critical bad roll that might come up in a game might as well be +6 points for the Avatar, at least the way I play him. Sadly, it's not worth spending 26 points for that four focus turn when you can buy a Revelator for only 11 points and those 11 points will get you quite a lot, including immunity to disruption, stronger melee hits and ranged attacks. You can use WJP to cover most of that colossal. Even saying all of that, I actually think his rules are nearly there and he really does have a lot going for him. Give him back immunity to disruption and he'll be in a much better spot than he is now and would only need a tweak to his points. I think that steady would be nice on him, but that would be way too much.
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Post by macdaddy on Jun 13, 2018 1:49:54 GMT
Played Malekus today to try and get Eye of Truth on the table, gosh it was horrible. Even the feat turn was underwhelming in combo with eye and battle (pow 17 reckoners, pow 15 repenters) Just too dice dependent. Open fire is just not a very useful spell, should be cost 1 since it can only be cast once per turn. Outside of feat turn he just does not do anything. *sigh* back on the shelf he goes lol
I really think he needs help to function.
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doopsie
Junior Strategist
Posts: 341
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Post by doopsie on Jun 13, 2018 3:06:17 GMT
I'm still in the boat that Malekus and Tristan2 need to trade Open Fire and Manifest Destiny. This would help really define what is really wanted from these two casters. I'm gonna go ahead and disagree on this. For one, how/why does Malekus want a spell that buffs melee output, when his whole thing (based upon his design as a big cleanser and his feat) is about fire-typed attacks, which only come from ranged? Malekus wants more pew-pew resulting in more "oh god, I'm on fire! Noooooooo....blegh." For another, what about Tristan? Let's look at what he wants. His feat wants you to have exactly 7 jacks, allowing you to, in an ideal world, have 7 fully-loaded jacks at the end of the feat, plus 7 focus for Tristan to spend. Melee jacks tend to get more work out of being fully loaded imo than ranged, so this says I want 7 melee jacks. Plus, ranged jacks tend to be more expensive than melee, especially in protectorate, making it virtually impossible to take a list of 7 ranged jacks. Hand of the Creator doesn't care either way, and inviolable resolve wants a high-ARM jack/unit to be slapped on. The ONLY thing Tristan2 has that pushes ranged in his field marshal, which while great for ranged jacks, is also good for melee as it allows them to charge through cloud walls, which otherwise would stop our slow jacks in their tracks. So no, I do not agree that Malekus needs Manifest Destiny. He needs a cheaper RAT fixer, to encourage spamming Cleansers and/or Zealots, Open Fire to cost 1, to encourage spamming Repenters, or a cheap-ish model with Fuel for the Flames and/or Caustic Presence, to make what fire he does land more potent. And Tristan does not need Open Fire, he needs a way to either protect himself a bit better (as assassination is the easiest way to lose with him), make our jacks more maneuverable (pathfinder, for example), or a way to personally fight a bit better when the jacks go down.
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doopsie
Junior Strategist
Posts: 341
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Post by doopsie on Jun 13, 2018 3:13:41 GMT
Played Malekus today to try and get Eye of Truth on the table, gosh it was horrible. Even the feat turn was underwhelming in combo with eye and battle (pow 17 reckoners, pow 15 repenters) Just too dice dependent. Open fire is just not a very useful spell, should be cost 1 since it can only be cast once per turn. Outside of feat turn he just does not do anything. *sigh* back on the shelf he goes lol I really think he needs help to function. I recommend Zealots or Cleansers. With his feat, it seems more beneficial to go for quantity of fire attacks, rather than quality.
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Post by macdaddy on Jun 13, 2018 3:25:48 GMT
doopsie even with the feat the "boosted" pow 14's struggle to focus down heavier targets (low range) and he does nothing for them outside of the feat :/
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Hashmal
Junior Strategist
Posts: 557
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Post by Hashmal on Jun 13, 2018 3:33:13 GMT
Zealots generally don't need the help to perform, and often shine on their own merits. Depends on what you're playing them into.
Zealots alone on Feat will not focus down a hard target, sure. But they will do serious damage. A Feated Reckoner shot as well is often all they need.
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doopsie
Junior Strategist
Posts: 341
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Post by doopsie on Jun 13, 2018 4:25:09 GMT
So here's the beauty of Zealots with Malekus. The bombs are AoE.
You got a hard target, like an ARM20 Juggernaut. Cool, it's taking probably 5-6 POW14+3d6. That's 20-24 damage, which is respectable, and more with any help from a Reckoner/Eye of Truth/Redeemers.
You got lighter infantry as a target, like Houseguard Halberdiers. Cool, they're taking either a direct hit, which WILL kill, or a POW8+3d6 blast damage, which will likely kill.
You got heavy infantry as a target, like ARM21 shield-walled Shocktroopers. Cool, they're taking about 9-10 POW14+3d6, with approximately 18-20 POW8+3d6 mixed in.
Now I will agree, Malekus really doesn't help Zealots outside of feat (Scourge notwithstanding). And I do agree Malekus could use help. All I am saying is that, with Malekus as he is right now, I find the high quantity, low quality of fire-damage that can be put out by models like Zealots and Cleansers to be far more effective than the high quality, low quantity of fire damage that can be put out by a list of Vanquishers, Reckoners, and VoJs.
Personally, I like that Malekus rewards high-quantity/low-quality, as I feel very few warcasters in Menoth do so. I would just like him to have a bit more help (IMO, best would be either a light warjack/solo with Fuel for the Flames, or give him a spell with a Fuel-like ability. But that could get silly fast, which is why I've always been cautious when it's been suggested).
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Post by macdaddy on Jun 13, 2018 12:10:54 GMT
I guess I was just really really wanting to run Repenters and was dissapointed I really think guided fire would be nice on him, and open fire should be cost 1, also He should probably get flat Arcane Ward....
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