doopsie
Junior Strategist
Posts: 341
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Post by doopsie on Jun 13, 2018 12:23:25 GMT
I guess I was just really really wanting to run Repenters and was dissapointed Don't get me wrong, Repenters are certainly Malekus' jack of choice. But given the following: -Open Fire costing 2, making it inefficient -Open Fire not allowing boosts, resulting in Repenters having a decent chance at missing -Scourge being expensive -wanting to fully load jacks on feat turn, prohibiting using Open Fire & Scourge spamming warjacks with him just doesn't work as I'd like. Personally I'd go no more than 2 heavies (Eye and 1 Reckoner, personally) and 2 Repenters. It's just Malekus lives&dies by his feat, so more attacks is better to counter bad dice.
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Post by correlion on Jun 13, 2018 14:27:50 GMT
My most successful Malekus list was something like this: conflictchamber.com/#c2201b_-0dfZgS9xg93qlM229xgT3t303jProtectorate Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] The Creator's Might !!! Your army contains a CID entry. [Malekus 1] Malekus, the Burning Truth [+30] - Eye of Truth [20] - Repenter [8] - Revelator [37] - Hierophant [0(3)] Scrutator Potentate Severius [0(6)] - Reckoner [16] - Repenter [8] Three Wracks [0(3)] Vassal Mechanik [1] Choir of Menoth (max) [6] Visgoth Juviah Rhoven & Honor Guard [9] Sev0 is a big help here =)
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Post by macdaddy on Jun 13, 2018 14:50:35 GMT
My most successful Malekus list was something like this: conflictchamber.com/#c2201b_-0dfZgS9xg93qlM229xgT3t303jProtectorate Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] The Creator's Might !!! Your army contains a CID entry. [Malekus 1] Malekus, the Burning Truth [+30] - Eye of Truth [20] - Repenter [8] - Revelator [37] - Hierophant [0(3)] Scrutator Potentate Severius [0(6)] - Reckoner [16] - Repenter [8] Three Wracks [0(3)] Vassal Mechanik [1] Choir of Menoth (max) [6] Visgoth Juviah Rhoven & Honor Guard [9] Sev0 is a big help here =) Sevvy0 was my thought process, But I have serious issues with Creators might. Most of them revolve around it having 0 scenario presence.
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Hashmal
Junior Strategist
Posts: 557
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Post by Hashmal on Jun 13, 2018 16:20:41 GMT
It has more than you think, but you have to know how to play it. It's not an easy scenario army.
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Post by correlion on Jun 14, 2018 11:30:11 GMT
this list was surprisingly good vs infantry spam. Eye of Truth can tank like a god =) and Road to War on Repenter can help you with threat range or other position issues
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Post by macdaddy on Jun 14, 2018 12:32:36 GMT
It has more than you think, but you have to know how to play it. It's not an easy scenario army. How so? I feel like, once you commit to zones against most armies with your horribly slow jacks, you are just going to lose them to a beast/jack/unit that threats farther than you and can pound you once you enter to contest said zone. I know some people use merc solos like Anastasia and Idrians help stall a bit, but the list is super bricky and spread scenarios and basically impossible to contest properly without overextending. Maybe I am just spoiled in circle with being able to spread out and be super active in scenario.
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khobai
Junior Strategist
Posts: 108
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Post by khobai on Jun 14, 2018 21:19:59 GMT
scourge should be replaced with hexblast banishing ward should be replaced with hot shot
immolation should be replaced with howling flames (cost 3 pow12 spray that causes fire)
open fire should only cost 1
malekus spell list should be: howling flames
hexblast
hot shot open fire (cost 1)
ignite
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doopsie
Junior Strategist
Posts: 341
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Post by doopsie on Jun 14, 2018 21:37:24 GMT
ummmm....no?
In order: replacing Scourge with Hex Blast - I kiiiinda get where you're going here, I think. Replacing "auto-KD" with "no upkeeps, to drop DEF buffs and make buffed things easier to hit," but the RAT of Menoth shooting is low enough that even base DEF is tricky, so I would prefer the auto-KD than anti-upkeep, even if the auto-KD is more expensive.
Banishing Ward replaced with Hot Shot - At this point, you're crafting a caster who very much wants a jack gun list, and does literally nothing for infantry. I'm sorry, that just flies completely contrary to my understanding of the design of Malekus, and would be a better fit on a different caster.
Immolation replaced with Howling Flames - but why? Malekus already has a better spray, and if you want to spam it on feat turn, wouldn't the cheaper Immolation be a better spell?
Open Fire costing 1 - Agreed. Risky, given other casters with Open Fire, but that would certainly help Malekus.
I guess it would help if you provided your reasoning, rather than just fait accompli.
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khobai
Junior Strategist
Posts: 108
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Post by khobai on Jun 14, 2018 23:51:05 GMT
1) Hot Shot is far better than Scourge for spray attacks. Because you get the boosted attack roll on everything under the spray for only 1 focus. Scourge usually only helps you hit one model and it costs an absurd 4 focus. So im gonna have to say hot shot is better for what Malekus wants to do (use lots of sprays) 2) Hexblast is simply more versatile than Banishing Ward. And since id remove scourge from his spell list, it makes a good aoe replacement.
3) Malekus is obviously supposed to be a warjack caster. Not sure where you got the idea hes supposed to be an infantry caster. Because of banishing ward? Thats inarguably one of the most pathetic buffs in the game. Thats why Id remove banishing ward because it doesnt fit his design of being a warjack caster.
1) Malekus cant arcnode his spray. So no his spray is not better. 2) Casting howling flames does not prevent malekus from using his spray in addition. 3) Howling Flames is a way better spell than Immolation because it hits multiple models. can ignore stealth, concealment, LoS, etc... and it automatically causes fire.
Immolation is IMO one of the worst offensive spells except on Severius. I get so sick of seeing Immolation on casters like Malekus and Feora.
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doopsie
Junior Strategist
Posts: 341
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Post by doopsie on Jun 15, 2018 0:48:22 GMT
1) Hot Shot is far better than Scourge for spray attacks. Because you get the boosted attack roll on everything under the spray for only 1 focus. Scourge only helps you hit one model and it costs an absurd 4 focus. So im gonna have to say hot shot is better for what Malekus wants to do (use lots of sprays) 2) Hexblast is simply more versatile than Banishing Ward. And since id remove scourge from his spell list, it makes a good aoe replacement.
3) Malekus is obviously supposed to be a warjack caster. Not sure where you got the idea hes supposed to be an infantry caster. Because of banishing ward? Thats inarguably one of the most pathetic buffs in the game. Thats why Id remove banishing ward because it doesnt fit his design of being a warjack caster.
1) Malekus cant arcnode his spray. So no his spray is not better. 2) Casting howling flames does not prevent malekus from using his spray in addition. 3) Howling Flames is a way better spell than Immolation because it hits multiple models. can ignore stealth, concealment, LoS, etc... and it automatically causes fire.
Immolation is IMO one of the worst offensive spells except on Severius. I get so sick of seeing Immolation on casters like Malekus and Feora.
Alrightly, once again: Point 1) I agree that Hot Shot is better than Scourge for spray attacks. But that is not what you specified. You specifically swapped Banishing Ward for Hot Shot, and Scourge for Hex Blast. As for Malekus having Hot Shot, I'd be concerned that would be far too much power available. Giving a model boosted ranged damage rolls on top of the feat giving an additional die and having open fire for an additional shot (as hot shot still works for the extra shot), on a jack that will likely spray and tag a lot of models, is not insignificant. Point 2) Again, not what you initially specified. And Hex Blast stripping upkeeps renders a large chunk of Eye of Truth (bond giving blessed to everyone within 5") pointless, and it seems odd to give a low-ish range AoE attack to somebody who wants to spam sprays. Scourge makes sense, because it fixes the big problem with Protectorate sprays. Point 3) Where is this obvious? Malekus has exactly one spell/ability that aids jacks (open fire) and one that is best on units (banishing ward), and the rest works for anybody. Malekus wants volume of fire-type attacks. AoE, spray, single shot, whatever. You want a lot of attacks to maximize the impact of the feat turn, which makes each attack hit harder. What's the most point-effective way to get a lot of attack rolls? Units. For example, 20 points can get you 2.5 Repenters (5 sprays max if using Open Fire), or max Cleansers + UA (11 sprays at a longer threat). edit: Hell, his appearance, weapon of choice and special rule are ALL Cleanser based, pushing the idea of taking Cleansers. You want to use a ton of jacks with Malekus, cool. You do you. But he is NOT a warjack caster (see: Tristan2, Amon, Durst?). He is volume-of-attack, which at this moment is best obtained through infantry. Point 4) You are correct in every one of those points, and I would STILL prefer Immolation. It's his assassination spell. And when going for assassination, I want to cast the kill spell as much as I can. That said, I do appreciate you explaining your reasoning. I disagree with almost all of it (especially Malekus being a jack caster), but at least I have some understanding. Thank you.
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Post by paradox on Jun 15, 2018 0:57:30 GMT
I would not trade Scourge for Hex Blast. That would be a definite trade-down.
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khobai
Junior Strategist
Posts: 108
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Post by khobai on Jun 15, 2018 1:07:42 GMT
if you actually read my post... the trade is scourge for hexblast -AND- hotshot for banishing word
which is a definite uptrade IMO.
hotshot is only 1 focus to upkeep and boosts every attack roll under a spray. that is better than scourge with its absurd cost of 4.
Well now I am specifying it.
Scourge being traded for Hexblast would be contingent on Banishing Ward also being traded for Hot Shot. Its a double replacement. And the roles of the spells are juxtaposed.
Hot Shot does a far better job of fixing the big problem with protectorate sprays. While costing only 1 focus. Not 4.
Point 3) Where is this obvious? Malekus has exactly one spell/ability that aids jacks (open fire) and one that is best on units (banishing ward), and the rest works for anybody.
Well we can just agree to disagree. But its obvious to me hes meant to be a jack caster. He spends the majority of his focus each turn spamming open fire. And it open fire cost 1 he would spam it even more.
He doesnt really need an assassination spell if he gets hot shot and open fire only costs 1. open fire would be his assassination spell.
Even howling flames would rarely be cast. But it would still be a far better tool than immolation.
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doopsie
Junior Strategist
Posts: 341
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Post by doopsie on Jun 15, 2018 1:16:01 GMT
if you actually read my post... the trade is scourge for hexblast -AND- hotshot for banishing word
which is a definite uptrade IMO.
hotshot is only 1 focus to upkeep and boosts every attack roll under a spray. that is better than scourge with its absurd cost of 4.
Well now I am specifying it.
Scourge being traded for Hexblast would be contingent on Banishing Ward also being traded for Hot Shot. Re-read Hot Shot. It boosts damage rolls, not attack rolls. We need better accuracy, the feat already handles damage/
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khobai
Junior Strategist
Posts: 108
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Post by khobai on Jun 15, 2018 1:30:12 GMT
ah I thought hot shot was attack rolls. my bad. whatever upkeep gives boosted attack rolls is what he should have. guided fire?
the point is scourge is a trash spell. 4 focus is obnoxiously overcosted for what it does. he needs a 1 focus upkeep that buffs attack rolls.
and banishing ward is even worse. no warcaster should have to suffer having banishing ward on their spell list. that spell should just be removed from the game.
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doopsie
Junior Strategist
Posts: 341
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Post by doopsie on Jun 15, 2018 2:12:32 GMT
ah I thought hot shot was attack rolls. my bad. whatever upkeep gives boosted attack rolls is what he should have. guided fire?
the point is scourge is a trash spell. 4 focus is obnoxiously overcosted for what it does. he needs a 1 focus upkeep that buffs attack rolls.
and banishing ward is even worse. no warcaster should have to suffer having banishing ward on their spell list. that spell should just be removed from the game. So Guided Fire would be quite over the top. It's not an upkeep (that's a mark against it), but it gives EVERY model in the battle group an additional dice to hit. This is, as you well know, gross with 8 pt sprays, especially when the feat gives an additional die of damage. It'll never happen. Dead Eye is in a similar boat, in that it would be silly if applied to Zealots or Cleansers. As for a upkeep spell that buffs attacks on a single warjack, I don't know of any, but I haven't memorized all the upkeeps in the game. For Scourge, it is a premier assassination spell. For 5 focus (yes, a lot), you are making sure your ENTIRE ARMY can hit the target, despite our bad RAT. It's not often cast, as it is expensive, but when it is, it's fantastic. For example, damn that Caine3,with his stupid DEF17. He's wrecking your army, you need to assassinate, but you don't have a ton of tools left and he's freaking DEF17! Even if you had Guided Fire, it's not super-likely you'll hit him. So run a model, preferably low-DEF (say, a Choir Member) to within 0.5" of Caine, then tag the Choir in the back with Scourge. Choir gets hit on a 7 (Def 12, -4 to hit due to engaged, +2 to hit due to backstrike, and for the love of god boost this), which also knocks down Caine as he was within the AoE, and now your Repenters are basically autohitting. Or your Cleansers. Or your Deliverers. Or your Redeemers. Or ALL OF THE ABOVE! YAY! And as for Banishing Ward...have you never been spell assassinated? Do you not play against Cryx, and would like to avoid a massive ARM-debuff on your very expensive Eye of Truth? Don't use Banishing Ward reactively (SP?) (the first half), use it proactively. Put it on a unit/model turn 1, before they get tagged with a spell, and then they cannot be tagged with a spell.
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