gmonkey
Junior Strategist
I, for one, welcome our Infernal Overlords.
Posts: 313 
|
Post by gmonkey on May 2, 2018 19:54:40 GMT
I've got a friend who regularly plays three units of Forge Guard with a Siege Crawler, and I always have trouble dealing with it. He runs up the forge guard behind two huge bases or behind a wall of gun bunnies. Even when I kill a ton of them, some make it through, and it only takes a few charges to wreck a heavy. With them Wall of Steeling up to ARM18, they're pretty much immune to lightning from fireflies and storm striders, and my friend is always in Hammer Strike, so they've all got tough, and the Siege Crawler brings back any I do manage to kill.
He'll play them with either Gorton, and Solid Ground means they're all ARM18 with tough-no-knockdown, or with Ossrum, where Tactician: Rhulic means that he moves them up behind gun bunnies and then charges them THROUGH the gun bunnies when it's time.
The only thing I've ever found which helps me to deal with them is a Cyclone. Any other tips?
|
|
|
|
Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on May 2, 2018 21:10:06 GMT
If they are playing Hammer Strike then Stryker 2 with Rebuke can shut down one unit while you focus down the second
|
|
luckgod84
Junior Strategist
Cygnar blogger
Posts: 163
|
Post by luckgod84 on May 2, 2018 21:24:47 GMT
In melee trencher commandos with make quick work of them,,, then get to use quick work shots too!
Stryker2's feat will help them kill even more stumpies
|
|
|
|
Post by Aegis on May 3, 2018 5:29:15 GMT
In HM: Cyclones or Thunderhead will make short work of them
In GD: Trenchers commandos love single wound-high ARM targets
In SoT: Black 13 and Tempest blazers can kill Hammer Dwarves pretty easily with brutal shots.
|
|
|
|
Post by droopingpuppy on May 3, 2018 9:44:34 GMT
Actually Cyclone does almost nothing against them, since it only able to put one Covering Fire template. Even consider POW 12 Covering Fire can halt them, consider the numbers of template it is not an option - especially your friend has three units of them. Remember it is a 13 point warjack and is simply pointless.
I think that you will like Centurion. It can't be charged, means Forge Guards are not able to do anything against it. It is not a hugh based model so it won't damaged by Siege Crawler either.
Trencher Chain Gun Crews are able to put cheap POW 10 Covering Fire template and harrass them, able to damaging them 58% when they are attempt to cross the line or have to pop the feat of Ossrum. If you have one Stormwall, it can put more Covering Fire templates as well.
Caine1 can kill a lots of them at ease, perhaps. He can kill a trooper by 58%, and with Feat: Maelstrom he can decimate that much enemy Forge Guards and don't care for the line of sight.
Brisbane1 can deal with them by combine of Feat: Breach and some random AOE attacks. line of sight issues of screening Siege Crawler can be solved by either Gun Mage Captain Adept or Taryn di la Rovissi.
Stormblade Infantry can shoot them to death so easily, for DEF 10 is an easy game even for low-end RAT 5, and POW 12+2 shot is enough to end them. As soon as Forge Guards are exposed, they can get the guards first and remove them quite easily. Only problem is the opponent's Ossrum, but without that it seems not much a problem since Dwarves are not renown for rifles which is the bane of Stormblade Infantry.
DEF 13+2 Sword Knights are not so easy target for them, so consider them if you want a dogfight.
|
|
|
|
Post by booggy on May 3, 2018 11:56:35 GMT
I'm used to play against an Ossrum player in my meta (with BEx2, Forgeguardx2, Forgeguard Artilleryx2, Ogrun Bokurx2, and bunnies) and I didn't find an answer to this (I don't play Haley3 neither).
Trencher Commandos could be fine vs Forgeguard, except they are easily sprayed to death by gun bunnies before even being delivered. I think it's the same for Gun Mages (B13 and Blazers), who can kill a bunch of Forgeguard (who will come back via the Siege Crawler) before being sprayed.
My regular opponent has only 2 unit of forgeguards, but an awful amount of ranged firepower. Your opponent has as a slightly different list, so maybe the Commandos can reach the FG in melee without suffering too much.. ?
|
|
|
|
Post by jagius021 on May 3, 2018 12:38:02 GMT
I don't think a cyclone is a bad idea, people always talk about covering fire templates like the field is absent of terrian. Sometimes just directing the flow of dwarves can be an effective measure. A piece of rough terrian on one side of it and now your opponent has to decide to go into terrian (which they may or may not have Pathfinder) or go the long way around, or eat the possibility of bullets.
That being said, there are better ways of dealing with them. Commandos are my go to against dwarves and sentinels and iron fangs. Minutemen jacks are incredibly frustrating for opponents to deal with, especially under sidekick or bullet dodger. Def 16 jacks that can jump will mean your opponent has to boost to hit them and can't just jam them up. A minuteman can kill quite a few dwarves a turn and slow his advance.
Which brings to another point. You may not have to kill any dwarves, or siege crawlers. If you can get the early advantage on scenario and keep it, you will win on scenario by the bottom of turn 3 in many cases. (Against slower armies)
|
|
|
|
Post by droopingpuppy on May 3, 2018 12:57:23 GMT
The problem is, Cyclone can't do anyting but put the Covering Fire template however it costs 13 points. Meanwhile, a Trencher Chain Gun Crew team costs only 4 points. Although I know the diffrence between POW 10 and POW 12, which is actually have some meaningful diffrence(especially against ARM 16~17 enemies), but having only one template is a critical flaw of Cyclone. Even if you want a sure kill against who move through the template, overlapping two POW 10 templates will results similar kill rate with a single POW 12, which means you just end up with two Trencher Chain Gun Crew teams anyways.
|
|
gmonkey
Junior Strategist
I, for one, welcome our Infernal Overlords.
Posts: 313
|
Post by gmonkey on May 3, 2018 14:50:35 GMT
Woo - lots of responses! Don't have much time to respond right now - let me go through quickly.
Yeah - Stryker 2 with lots of stormblades has been my go-to - rebuke is great. But last time I tried that he had Ossrum run + feat, moving them way way forward and leaving the forge guard behind a wall of ARM21 gun bunnies, with the forge guard poised to charge through them the following turn. I know this is maybe more of an Ossrum problem than a forge guard problem.
I don't own trencher anything. I usually go storm division or heavy metal. Just got my second unit of stormlances. So trencher commandos and chain guns won't be an answer for me.
(There's also the fact that I've been getting in maybe one game per month on average, so I spend more time talking about Warmachine than playing it)
The centurion is decent at holding off a unit of forge guard - I've done that before. The forge guard are only hitting it for maybe 2 points per round each. But that's using an 18 point jack to hold off maybe a half unit of hammer dwarves.
Stormwall is probably useful because two more covering fires. I've got a list I haven't yet used which I call "YOU SHALL NOT PASS", and it's got a cyclone and a stormwall. Lotsa covering fire. But man, that stormwall is afraid of forge guard.
Caine1 is an interesting idea. He was my second caster, but I haven't put him on the table in Mk3.
A Minuteman is an interesting idea as well. I don't have time to look up the B2B flak damage - I wonder if it hits that magic POW12 number we need to get at the dwarves. It would only take 1 dwarf to disable or 2 to wreck the minuteman though. They'd hit on sixes unless you did have a bullet dodger caster.
My experience with forge guard is always that I shoot up a ton of them, kill maybe 70% of them, and then the 30% get through and kill my entire army.
|
|
|
|
Post by cygnarstronk on May 3, 2018 16:16:21 GMT
in SD: Nemo 3 WILL fry them all up.
in HM: again nemo3; siege1 feat will make them explode; Centurions will jam them up for good.
in GD: boy, almost everything goes. CRA from TLG, commandos, CRA from normal trenchers. All in all breaking ARM 18 isn't too hard to do in GD.
in SoTT: siege1 will make short work of them during feat turn, Kraye and 3 or 4 centurions will stall him for life while he suffers impact attacks.
|
|
|
|
Post by jagius021 on May 3, 2018 17:08:50 GMT
Minutemen are pow 12 flak, and their def is 14 so it's average dice for forge guard to hit. The value in it is they must divert their attention to a minuteman otherwise it can kill casters if left unchecked. And you don't need a bullet dodger caster, you just need jakes1 with sidekick. Who is a good model in heavy metal by herself.
|
|
|
|
Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on May 3, 2018 17:35:33 GMT
Minutemen are pow 12 flak, and their def is 14 so it's average dice for forge guard to hit. The value in it is they must divert their attention to a minuteman otherwise it can kill casters if left unchecked. And you don't need a bullet dodger caster, you just need jakes1 with sidekick. Who is a good model in heavy metal by herself. Bear in mind they cannot jump if they have Sidekick on them |
|
|
|
Post by droopingpuppy on May 3, 2018 18:14:32 GMT
I don't think that only about 10 troopers of Forge Guards can ruin entire of your models in melee. All they can is just kill about two heavy jacks with ARM around 20, then you can react against them. They are powerful combatants, and melee concentrated models are designed to be work well even with bearing some casualty, but they are not able to dismantle everything on sight so fast as Butcher3 does. What's happening on your gameplay?
|
|
gmonkey
Junior Strategist
I, for one, welcome our Infernal Overlords.
Posts: 313
|
Post by gmonkey on May 3, 2018 20:58:07 GMT
The two times I can think of to cite, once he had Gorten and his tough-no-knockdown troops rolled eight consecutive tough checks - about 75% in total, but eight of them in a row with no failures. I know that's unusual, but it led to me being destroyed. The other time, he had the forge guard hiding behind a row of ARM21 gun bunnies, and my stormblades couldn't do a thing. Even with positive charge, they're only hitting with a POW 17 charge, meaning that each is doing dice minus four. That's not going to do much to an undamaged gun bunny - those things have lots of boxes. The next turn, the entire swarm of forge guard charged through. It struck me later that I could have done something by slamming a bunny with my firefly. Wish I'd thought of that earlier.
|
|
|
|
Post by borderprince on May 4, 2018 5:22:41 GMT
The other time, he had the forge guard hiding behind a row of ARM21 gun bunnies, and my stormblades couldn't do a thing. Even with positive charge, they're only hitting with a POW 17 charge, meaning that each is doing dice minus four. That's not going to do much to an undamaged gun bunny - those things have lots of boxes. The next turn, the entire swarm of forge guard charged through. It struck me later that I could have done something by slamming a bunny with my firefly. Wish I'd thought of that earlier. Just charging the bunnies under Ossrum's feat suggests that the bigger problem there is that you're playing Ossrum's game on his terms. Of course a merc player wants you to try and take out his gun bunnies under feat; that is when it's hardest to do. That slamming idea is the right way to approach this. Don't try and brute force your way through a group of models who are meant to be fairly tough. A couple of suggestions: 1 - Move out of the threat range of the Forgeguard. If Ossrum has already feated (to get the ARM bonus for the Bunnies), then those Forgeguard behind the bunnies have only got a 9" threat range, 40mm of which is taken up with getting past the bases of the bunnies (leaving less than 7.5" of actual threat). Table state and scenario might make that difficult in some games, but bear it in mind. Once the feat is gone, things get easier. 2 - If you can't go through the bunnies, go around. SD has Lances, SoT has Blazers. Running to the flanks for a turn to then move back into combat range might help. The bunnies/Battle Engine will need to be used to try and shoot the flanking models (it's not like the Forgeguard are fast enough to chase things down), which potentially opens up the Forgeguard to attacks from other parts of the army. Playing like this disrupts the plan of your opponent, especially as it sounds like their general plan is to create a brick and shove it at you. Chip away at the brick from unexpected angles (with a threatened possibility of an assassination on Ossrum, who usually lurks near the back). Finally, make sure that the table is set up in a fair way, which may include some inconveniently placed terrain. Outside of Ossrum's feat, pure Rhulic armies lack pathfinder, which can also help disrupt things in your favour, especially with 30 Forgeguard on the table. Take advantage of that - you may be able to funnel Forgeguard into particular parts of the battlefield (at which point an ability like Covering Fire becomes very valuable). |
|
