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Post by mcdermott on Apr 22, 2018 6:46:49 GMT
Honestly the list isn't slow any way. Advance Move + Desperate Pace means you're walking 10" or running 14" on turn 1, which is as far up as a SPD 7 model would be. You can have a unit of STs in the zone on the top of turn 1, that is pretty significant pressure... Especially if you can get them iron fleshed and shield walled while contesting a zone. They're easy enough to remove, but only over time and with a large ass investment of a % of an army.
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Post by auraco on Apr 22, 2018 13:54:34 GMT
Let's just hope these advance move change are official, at the moment they are not and we don't know if they will be official.
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Post by sand20go on Apr 22, 2018 14:55:32 GMT
Honestly the list isn't slow any way. Advance Move + Desperate Pace means you're walking 10" or running 14" on turn 1, which is as far up as a SPD 7 model would be. You can have a unit of STs in the zone on the top of turn 1, that is pretty significant pressure... Having tried to play the old version in a Con I completely agree. It just is way too slow. But you also need a damage fixer. You can't have 20+ points of models in those shocktroopers without getting quality work done with their attacks as they march up the board. Next test? I am going to try Sorscha 1 with Elish/Sylss and then A&H
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Post by auraco on Apr 22, 2018 16:02:42 GMT
What about Ragman? He's a reliable damage buff, won't have any problem keeping up with the army and has all the sac pawn targets he can ever want in Armored Corps.
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Post by mcdermott on Apr 22, 2018 21:36:55 GMT
Irusks. Move buffs, pathfinder, and a damage fixer in both incarnations.
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Post by sand20go on Apr 22, 2018 21:52:39 GMT
Irusks. Move buffs, pathfinder, and a damage fixer in both incarnations. Truth! It is a straight forward and possibly best choice. I think Irusk1 usually better because Iron Flesh- Irusk2 having no way to speed them up but conversely offering opportunity to put down an artifice and have some stuff DEF 14 (16 with a hill!). Flip side is that Irusk2 doesn't have to pay the Atanas Tax since he gives out Armywide pathfinder (though only once), has his tough bubble and offers tactician.
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Post by mcdermott on Apr 22, 2018 23:25:58 GMT
If the advanced move alone is enough of a speed boost there's also butcher 1. Iron flesh, and two damage fixers, spell and feat. no pathfinder but that should be attainable elsewhere.
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Post by sand20go on Apr 23, 2018 0:06:11 GMT
If the advanced move alone is enough of a speed boost there's also butcher 1. Iron flesh, and two damage fixers, spell and feat. no pathfinder but that should be attainable elsewhere. It isn't (or at least not today) in "The Pit". Going second into a Cryx Mort List. At 9 inch with 12 inch run those jacks are at the 21 inch line bottom. With Carapace they don't have to worry about shooting (that much) and you have to at least respect 10 inch threat to the non-shocks and then overrun stuff at least partially. Gaspy3 would, I think, produce a similar challenge and be up even further with mobility and the run. Better results against, it would seem, Cygnar, Menoth, Skorne. About the same into Legion and Circle. Not sure WHAT the answer is but just getting the 6 inch shield wall shocks or threat for 11 on the charge seems "poor". Now sorscha 3 will be OK here. Cloud wall goes up and then many of the above sorta screwed because no charge and just a poor walking 7 inch threat that is very manageable. But in my Female Dog and moan post I suggested that all that will then happen is that the bad guys will back up, you have blown your feat and then the out threat game begins anew. No, I think you HAVE to have a speed buff so you can stack Kovnik and the buff to get them up (interesting possibility here - OW2 - who with dirt cheap BC and Curse (and another buff?) offers chances to get at least decent threat ranges and get damage up to POW 18/20 and get work done with the bombers against stuff that is blinded.)
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Ganso
Junior Strategist
Posts: 932
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Post by Ganso on Apr 23, 2018 3:34:50 GMT
Yeah but the SW Legion models are all fixed pose, so while easy to assemble your army is going to look 'boring' as soon as you start getting multiples of things. If they're using the same plastic as they used for X-Wing and the old Dust Tactics, then it's pretty crap plastic, thin and brittle (more toylike in nature). Though they do look cool
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Post by sand20go on Apr 23, 2018 4:21:56 GMT
What about Ragman? He's a reliable damage buff, won't have any problem keeping up with the army and has all the sac pawn targets he can ever want in Armored Corps. Yes. I think that if you are not bringing a damage fixer with a caster than Rags is a must. I am not sure even that is enough. What I saw this weekend (and it is a limited sample but feels a lot better data than casual sunday gaming with friends) is that MOST competitive armor cracking list are either of 2 main forms with 1 variant. About 70-80% are jack/beast themes. In most cases synergies and support dial up both their hitting power AND their staying power. So ARM 21/8 boxes is a bit of a challenge but not when you are building to take down Baldur2 or Mother or Arcane Shield Stormwalls. I mean it makes you reach a bit but doable. Sure legion Female Doges about their lack of an damage buff but lots of others have lots of answers (interestingly cygnar may start to sweat a bit and did not place well in masters this week) About 20% of the lists are weaponmaster dude spam. This reflects either the lack of a great jack theme (mercs) or operator preference (Bane spam). About 10% try to ignore armor by control and by having good "dude spam" answers. They are not looking to kill much of that armor, rather relying on control elements to "cheat" their way to wins on scenarios with rear facing scoring elements (spread the net) while doing just enough to contest. Now this has some implications because unless you have a really interesting list pairing your opponent is going to reach for "armor cracking" when they seem "Armor Korp" on the list. Now then. Your list thus has to be able to..... A) deal with weaponmaster spam. Most of our lists can - and ESPECIALLY with the Supression tanker and then other things (conquest) that can put down enough. Yes, Things over ARM 16 CAN try their luck running through to get to the good stuff (for example you will need 10s to kill forgeguards under Ossum and you will never stop those knights under skare 1s feat but Khador HAS great units (widows) to deal with those sorts of units and we have a great jack theme that lets you bring those models in spades. B) Deal with Jacks/Beasts. Here is the rub. You HAVE to be able to get higher power than Pow 14. I watched many bounce into Deathjack today by my shocks today as he enjoyed having spectral steel in play. When things are ARM 20-21-22 and you are going to lose shield wall you HAVE to be able to kill a hard target. Ergo things like battlelust, fury, etc. Now support bloat can also be used. So tuning those POW 14s up to POW 16 or even 18 can make the world of difference. But you have to be able to do it. C) And finally, you have to have an answer (Chariots?) to the fact that you are brining a low model count army. Some people will simply say "OK, so I feat and push you back 8 inches and now you are walking 1 inch. Enjoy trying to get back to these elements to score and meanwhile there are hammer dwarves waiting for you.
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Post by borderprince on Apr 23, 2018 5:14:30 GMT
What I saw this weekend (and it is a limited sample but feels a lot better data than casual sunday gaming with friends) is that MOST competitive armor cracking list are either of 2 main forms with 1 variant. About 70-80% are jack/beast themes. In most cases synergies and support dial up both their hitting power AND their staying power. So ARM 21/8 boxes is a bit of a challenge but not when you are building to take down Baldur2 or Mother or Arcane Shield Stormwalls. I mean it makes you reach a bit but doable. Sure legion Female Doges about their lack of an damage buff but lots of others have lots of answers (interestingly cygnar may start to sweat a bit and did not place well in masters this week). I think one important point about jack/beast themes against Armored Corps is the volume of attacks and for jacks the need to use focus to increase the number of attacks. Jacks/beasts hit hard, but often not hard enough to take out a Shock Trooper reliably in one hit, or even just their initial attacks (obviously depends on the particular model). Being built to be able to take out one or two very hard targets a turn does not always mean being built to take out a similar number of similarly armoured boxes, but spread across more models. Especially if the anti-ARM list relies on buffs to a single model - it can only be in a single place at a time. When I was playing MoW STs early in Mk3 (mostly pre-theme), anti-ARM lists sometimes struggled on scenario as they couldn't get through the STs fast enough. But the STs were hitting back hard enough (STs + Fury from Kozlov and Ragman) to degrade the attacks coming at them sufficiently to get the attrition edge. Weaponmaster spam is different, where preventing the weapon masters from charging is often more important.
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Post by sand20go on Apr 23, 2018 13:24:29 GMT
What I saw this weekend (and it is a limited sample but feels a lot better data than casual sunday gaming with friends) is that MOST competitive armor cracking list are either of 2 main forms with 1 variant. About 70-80% are jack/beast themes. In most cases synergies and support dial up both their hitting power AND their staying power. So ARM 21/8 boxes is a bit of a challenge but not when you are building to take down Baldur2 or Mother or Arcane Shield Stormwalls. I mean it makes you reach a bit but doable. Sure legion Female Doges about their lack of an damage buff but lots of others have lots of answers (interestingly cygnar may start to sweat a bit and did not place well in masters this week). I think one important point about jack/beast themes against Armored Corps is the volume of attacks and for jacks the need to use focus to increase the number of attacks. Jacks/beasts hit hard, but often not hard enough to take out a Shock Trooper reliably in one hit, or even just their initial attacks (obviously depends on the particular model). Being built to be able to take out one or two very hard targets a turn does not always mean being built to take out a similar number of similarly armoured boxes, but spread across more models. Especially if the anti-ARM list relies on buffs to a single model - it can only be in a single place at a time. When I was playing MoW STs early in Mk3 (mostly pre-theme), anti-ARM lists sometimes struggled on scenario as they couldn't get through the STs fast enough. But the STs were hitting back hard enough (STs + Fury from Kozlov and Ragman) to degrade the attacks coming at them sufficiently to get the attrition edge. Weaponmaster spam is different, where preventing the weapon masters from charging is often more important. But that is my point. Kozlov BRINGS a damage buff (Fury+Rags) so you can start to trade and win (Pow 19 being very much a thing). And most good Armor cracking lists "solve" the fury/focus issue. Either they have force multipliers (Fitch) to allow you to get a ridiculous amount of focus on the table, empower'ers, Flank (una), Synergy (Brad), dark shroud appliers. On the other side of the game they use fury management tools or just accept that they will run hot and that they can win after killing 6-10 shock troopers....or that the game will be over before either player chews through stuff because they set the lines further toward YOUR table edge than theirs and thus you can not contest but they are. Speed and damage buff boys. Speed and a damage buff (hmmm....lord goat rides again ;-)
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Post by smoothcriminal on Apr 23, 2018 14:18:15 GMT
From my experience of trying to make old version work you need you 3 things in your list: 1. Damage fix (you need shockies to stay in SW and still do damage) - Ragman/Demos can take care of that. A&H costs too much. 2. Hit fix to hit infantry - Supressors can take care of that. 3. Pathfinder to not lose mission on some tables - Orrik, Bombers and Chariots can take care of that.
The problems of the old list was that damage/pathfinder were stuck on same 1 FA slot and hit fix wasn't available at all. So the only playable caster was V2 because Arcane might+hof fixed damage/hit and merc slot went to Saxxon.
Now with new options you can have anything in theme which frees up the merc slot for whatever else you lack and basically you can pick any caster now.
Speed wasn't actually an issue unless you aimed to alpha something. 10" run turn 1 and 6" shieldwall forward turn 2 brings you to objectives if you have a pathfinder. Though Advance move makes Kovnik not as obligatory as he was before since those 4" exactly compensate for what he does in first 2 turns.
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Post by sand20go on Apr 23, 2018 15:02:58 GMT
From my experience of trying to make old version work you need you 3 things in your list: 1. Damage fix (you need shockies to stay in SW and still do damage) - Ragman/Demos can take care of that. A&H costs too much. 2. Hit fix to hit infantry - Supressors can take care of that. 3. Pathfinder to not lose mission on some tables - Orrik, Bombers and Chariots can take care of that. The problems of the old list was that damage/pathfinder were stuck on same 1 FA slot and hit fix wasn't available at all. So the only playable caster was V2 because Arcane might+hof fixed damage/hit and merc slot went to Saxxon. Now with new options you can have anything in theme which frees up the merc slot for whatever else you lack and basically you can pick any caster now. Speed wasn't actually an issue unless you aimed to alpha something. 10" run turn 1 and 6" shieldwall forward turn 2 brings you to objectives if you have a pathfinder. Though Advance move makes Kovnik not as obligatory as he was before since those 4" exactly compensate for what he does in first 2 turns. Respectively disagree. Now not EVERY tournament you are going to see Spread the the Net but we are stress testing at this point. Stress testing going second.You have two things you need to get to - within 4 inches of your opponent's flag and into your opponents scoring zone. The best situation is for the shocks to take flag duty as that would allow our caster onto our flag and then still have jacks contesting their zone in his/her control area. The flag is at the 29 inches from our back deployment zone. 10 inch deployment - 19 inches from flag. Shocks AM 4 (15 inches from it. Lets assume for a moment that nothing is in the way (big assumption) and we can run our 10. Our man of wars thus STILL an inch away from CONTESTING range. On the other side of the map. The front of the zone is at the 26 inch line 10 inch deployment, Advanced move to 14 Run to 24 We are 2 inches short of being there. Again, assumes nothing is in the way and that nothing is shooting/killing them at them on top of 2. Shield Wall option here is awful as it leaves you 5 full inches (linear best case) from contesting the flag and 6 inches (so not even turn 3 without a charge/run). And it is CRITICAL to at least shut down easy scoring bottom of 2. You can't afford not to be contesting at least one (if not both) elements or else it is pretty much game over. It is why I am thinking my Irusk1 list with Kayazy has game. Difficult to shoot at them top of 2 unless you are way far forward with stealth. Cheap enough that you can start contesting. Meanwhile YOUR scoring is starting to occur as your opponent has to deal with Double shocks and a conquest.
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Post by smoothcriminal on Apr 23, 2018 15:27:37 GMT
I don't think getting shocks into opponent's flag turn 2 is a good idea. They will be in charge range of everything and just die and he will score flag anyway and you'll lose a big chunk of points. Get a Drakhun or a sped up Clam to go that far.
Running with shocks into enemy threat ranges is a waste of shocks, might as well play demos. The only time shocks should leave a shield wall is when they charge and kill whatever can retaliate.
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