Ganso
Junior Strategist
Posts: 932
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Post by Ganso on Apr 19, 2018 17:56:53 GMT
I can't see the justification for them being BAHI, they are neither large, centrepiece or impressive. In terms of size they are actually smaller than most current battle engines, it just reeks of a desperate cash grab! They have a preorder limit of 1000 units. Which means they're not expecting to sell a whole lot of them. They are also producing them in-house with their own processes. The minimum they would have to Mass Produce in China and then ship over to the US is at least double that amount (would be my shittiest of estimations) and I wouldn't be surprised if it were still an order of magnitude more just to cover the Tooling on the manufacturer's side.
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Post by Mr.Human on Apr 19, 2018 18:27:44 GMT
It is a bit bland because we got steam driven "robots" with huge Axes running around, what's a armored chariot compared to that.
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Post by auraco on Apr 19, 2018 18:42:07 GMT
To the people complaining about their rules, the assault chariot is actually really good at mulching infantry. They also add speed and scenario relevance to a very very slow theme. It's the only thing it can do, and then again the typical khador reliance on blast is a very big limitation. The big infantry theme that see a lot of play have plenty of way to ignore or minimise blast...
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Post by macdaddy on Apr 19, 2018 18:50:36 GMT
auraco like...what themes exactly? Because IME outside of some very specific examples. blast immunity is not super common, and multiple Pow 10 AOE's will do work on infantry.
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Post by sand20go on Apr 19, 2018 19:16:47 GMT
auraco like...what themes exactly? Because IME outside of some very specific examples. blast immunity is not super common, and multiple Pow 10 AOE's will do work on infantry. Gravediggers.
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Post by auraco on Apr 19, 2018 19:27:25 GMT
auraco like...what themes exactly? Because IME outside of some very specific examples. blast immunity is not super common, and multiple Pow 10 AOE's will do work on infantry. If we look at the popular lists in tournaments assuming it's not very good against jack and beasts lists so I won't be mentionning them: Cygnar: Gravediggers mostly ignores blast and can shoot if off the board Storm division mostly plays stormlances who can shrug off pow 10 blast Menoth: I have no clue what they play other than amon Khador It might be good if the other guy isn't playing armored corps, or jaws, or irusk2 or OW2, Cryx: Terrible against Satixis Has a hard time cracking armor against dark host Infernal machine is not exactly a popular choice of list Might have some applications against slaughter fleet, but armor 16 on bloodgorgers is still tough to crack Merc: Not very good against high armor dwarves units migh be ok against kingmakers or llaelise resistance if they don't bring trenchers Should be good against irregulars Ret Are they good against shield walled halbardiers? Will die very easily to AFG shooting Trollblood: Don't deal well with kolgrimma's cloudwall and pow 10 has limites against stuff under the krielstone Circle: Do they play their infantry? I only seem to see bones and birdspam from circle Skorne: Doesn't do much against derp turtles, rashet will shot it off the board in no time Zadesh can ignore it. Exalted has enough armor to ignore it, MakCats too. Legion: Might be able to do some work here, will be useless against primal terror. Minions: They play either posse brick under maelok or beast brick in WWFF, two match ups where the assault chariot won't be doing much. I'm going with discount gaming tournament results here. The application of that model in a competitive setting seems very limited.
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Post by sand20go on Apr 19, 2018 19:34:29 GMT
Not sure gravediggers shoots it off the board (absent resources like Kiss and other things) but I agree....it is not a great piece.
The smite gun, however, seems like it will get lots of potential work done, especially since you get dual attacks. As we all know from Swans, having jacks slamed into your caster leaves a SERIOUS mark - and with the collatoral being POW 20 you simply can't ignore it - especially if you have things that can follow up (CRA from bombers, Congquest, Victor, even a destroyer shot or 2.
For fun, realize that Caine3 has 13 arm with 15 boxes. With no camp you kill him outright on an 8 for damage if you can slam a model into him. Take THAT shootyboy.
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Post by macdaddy on Apr 19, 2018 19:47:47 GMT
auraco I was asking for infantry examples, of course it doesnt do well into double derp turtle and such. It actually does ok (not great but it works) into bridspam, because pow 10 blasts can hurt scarsfells and gets around stealth. Trenchers is a thing, but things like commandos and long gunners are not immune to blast unless they are in a treanch. Only the regular trenchers and weapon teams dig in. It works great into protectorate infantry builds like exemplar. It does fine into dark host, quantity matters here, and eventually enough pow 10's will crack arm 17 banes. Satyxis raiders are a problem but everything else infantry wise is gonna be sad. Even in LR only one unit can be trencher infantry....so only one unit will be dug in. Can you put blasts behind the frontline of dudes? if the blast originates behind they don't get shieldwall. AFG shooting kills lots of things, not sure how its relevant to the argument.... Ok so koldgrannie...very very specific example...It can do a decent enough job going after the stone though but typically trolls are not bringing the light infantry anymore. The other examples you listed don't really run infantry...so are not relevant to the conversation. Its an infantry removal piece, it does a fine job killing infantry.
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Post by sand20go on Apr 19, 2018 20:09:22 GMT
Trenchers is a thing, but things like commandos and long gunners are not immune to blast unless they are in a treanch. Only the regular trenchers and weapon teams dig in. I HAH!!! You are forgetting Seige2's damm feat. Unless used for threat extension for the melee, EVERYTHING digs in. Now I am not sure I would DO that with the commandos - but I might. That said (and caveat aside) Gravediggers is going to HATE supression tankers. If you can neuter the melee strength of the list you have a fighting chance (_IF you can figure out a way to deal with, in Haley3, Def 15 trencher spam that likely is coming back with the blockhouse and revive).
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Post by auraco on Apr 19, 2018 20:55:45 GMT
Trenchers long gunners have go to ground mini feat, which keeps them safe for one turn at least, so if the chariot lives long enough it might be able to do some work, assuming it wasn't shot to death, or it's trying to shoot something behind a cloudwall or under siege2's feat.
Against Dark host, I've only played against Bane Knights and Bane riders, never bane warrior, against bane warrior it might work, against the two others, not so much.
How efficient is it going to be against birdspam, yes you can do a bit of damage, but the birds will have dodge and will probably be able to charge and kill you next turn, it isn't even that hard since the chariot is on the squishy side for a battle engine.
Against halbardiers you need to be lucky in your deviation to get some work done. Against legion of dawn you might kill some dawnguard but will trigger vengeance when doing so.
I've tried the chariots during the CID and was really very disapointed by them in all my CID games.
Now the tankers are the interesting models in Armored Corps. They can do a lot of work and are not that expansive for what they do.
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Post by macdaddy on Apr 19, 2018 21:43:02 GMT
auraco Seige 2 is a very specefic example. Haley3 is the most common build *edit lynus and edrea cannot be taken with khador...sad* I see a lot of bane riders, but the AOE's are also good at killing the random support models that are not bane riders if there are no bane warriors in the list. I can say, krueger 2 lightning AOE's make brids cry, granted its boosted sometimes, but even if you don't go for the birds go for the backline models or una2 herself. Killing the wayfarers and support will hurt the list a lot. Remember, the chariot is not your only model, its just there to clean up infantry. Its also good at killing support staff. So you can pop holes in the halberds with tougher shots and finish off with chariot aoe's I tried them in CiD and the only one I found lackluster was the Seige chariot, the assault chariot did work every game. Tankers are really strong. I will say they are super great models. I feel the chariots are mostly about the speed and self sufficiency. They can contest and jam early to buy time for the rest of your forces.
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Post by smoothcriminal on Apr 19, 2018 22:19:46 GMT
The chariots feel too short ranged for a shooting support BE and too brittle for a linebreaker BE. Feels like whatever you want to accomplish with them you can just take other stuff and it will perform better.
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Post by auraco on Apr 19, 2018 22:37:39 GMT
auraco Seige 2 is a very specefic example. Haley3 is the most common build *edit lynus and edrea cannot be taken with khador...sad* I see a lot of bane riders, but the AOE's are also good at killing the random support models that are not bane riders if there are no bane warriors in the list. I can say, krueger 2 lightning AOE's make brids cry, granted its boosted sometimes, but even if you don't go for the birds go for the backline models or una2 herself. Killing the wayfarers and support will hurt the list a lot. Remember, the chariot is not your only model, its just there to clean up infantry. Its also good at killing support staff. So you can pop holes in the halberds with tougher shots and finish off with chariot aoe's I tried them in CiD and the only one I found lackluster was the Seige chariot, the assault chariot did work every game. Tankers are really strong. I will say they are super great models. I feel the chariots are mostly about the speed and self sufficiency. They can contest and jam early to buy time for the rest of your forces. I know models don't exist just in a vacuum but do you have a list or two in mind with the chariot? During the CID I was really trying to get mileage out of them and always came up disappointed. Maybe seeing a list that inspires me might change that. Because as I said, the applications of the chariot seem very limited to me. I especially dislike the chariot when I know the gun carriage is very good for only a few point more.
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Post by blindfury on Apr 20, 2018 1:35:44 GMT
That siege chariot is going to be a real problem for some lists on scenario--especially if you back it up with a couple descimators. Charge, knock down, shoot (slamming) hit with doser guns not having to boost to hit while pushing further and further out of zones.
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Post by macdaddy on Apr 20, 2018 2:43:06 GMT
auraco I mostly tested against Sorscha 3 in CiD, and while she does not run the chariots very well they are fairly self sufficient and buy her time to get the army in position. This is basically what I played against in CiD: conflictchamber.com/#c3201b_-10k_kZkZkZ8fl5l5l27Ol17QgdjJjJKhador Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Armored Corps (CID) (Sorscha 3) Kommandant Sorscha Kratikoff [+28] - Rager [10] - Rager [10] - Rager [10] - War Dog [3] Man-O-War Kovnik [0(4)] Man-O-War Kovnik [0(4)] Kommandant Atanas Arconovich & Standard [7] Man-O-War Demolition Corps (max) [15] - Sergeant Dragos Dragadovich [0(6)] Man-O-War Shocktroopers (max) [16] - Man-O-War Shocktrooper Officer [4] Man-O-War Assault Chariot [14] Man-O-War Assault Chariot [14] Basically the list trudges very slowly up-field, but is durable on the approach and demo core almost can guarantee and alpha with the feat and Minifeat. The list cracks arm really well (demo core with shatter and flanking Ragers to support the shockies. The chariots basically clear chaff/jamming infantry and buy time for the army to actually get there. At 14 points a pop they are decent contesting/jamming pieces that can get work done on opposing infantry screens before jamming your opponent and dying. I really think they are mostly there in theme to add a fast contesting element to the theme lists. You wont need them in every list, but they provide value by stalling for the rest of the army to head in and beat face. arm 19 with 28 boxes is also not super easy to remove in one go. You typically need a heavy with a buff (or fully loaded with focus) to remove one so they are pretty good at stalling things when committed and don't die to horribly from shooting on the approach as long as you keep them on the flanks. In all the games they ran way out on the flanks forced me to deal with them before hitting the rest of the army. Worked fairly well.
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