|
Post by Trollock on Mar 21, 2018 14:46:16 GMT
I just find them terribly underwhelming. Have you tried the "bring 4" approach? Killing one of them on the approach is not too hard. They are usually DEF 17-19 against ranged attacks but it can be done. Getting 4 is more problematic, and they do jam up the enemy lines pretty well. Sure, they might miss free strikes due to MAT 4 (but mental force can be used on free strikes) but will they even take that chance? and the explosion can do nasty things to units. I think more might be better here...
|
|
Haight
Junior Strategist
Posts: 396
|
Post by Haight on Mar 21, 2018 14:59:28 GMT
I have not, i have taken up to 2, because in full disclosure most of what i design my lists to do does not involve the Trancers, and i do not believe that "this thing is good if you spam it" has a place in a limited faction (full faction, different story). That's of course a subjective opinion, but its one that has formed from a lot of objective experience over the years, and would take quite a lot to change my mind on. That said: if i were willing to give one of my 2-3 test games a week over to partially testing spamming out Trancers, who would you suggest as caster and accompaniment ? Lukas comes to mind despite them not really offering him a ton he can't already muster. He can Burning ash to help them out without having Gorman or Alchemists playing nanny to them (or if so, getting a bit more out of it), and he can help them hit harder and mitigate their atrocious, crime against humanity, low MAT. Who else ? Gearhart is sort of Meh with them by appearances under the week 3 update though i suppose tactician is a bit of a help and bounless is extra threat - feat is an accuracy help too (EDIT: Alright, perhaps i can see utilization with Gearhart.). Locke could really give two shits by the looks of thing other than some ancillary survivability pushing them up to ARM 12-14. Pardon my apparent lack of enthusiasm over this prospect for the bargain price of 12 points. MacKay's flare offers a Mat fixer, for sure, but its a teeny one now in week 2.5 or 3.0. My problem is this: aside from the smite (and its issues in landing it as noted), they bring nothing that the faction isn't already very capable of doing (AOE's, infantry suppression, etc), and certainly nothing that investing 12 points into self destructive and coddling requiring models seems to justify. That said, if i'm missing somethign i'm all ears, so give me a couple of for-instances on list construction and theory behind it and maybe i'll give them a go in a game this week.
|
|
Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
|
Post by Provengreil on Mar 21, 2018 15:17:30 GMT
You mean their ranged def on approach, correct ? Because they are 13 against magic. Zap them with magic and they are hit half the time on unboosted 6's, which even most "Magic Ability" models can muster, to say nothing of casters. You don't even have to kill them, just put 2-3 boxes on them and they'll they'll likely kill themselves after their first mental force. Even ranged boosted 5's connect half the time without aiming, and a POW 9 unboosted kills from fresh half the time. In my experience they get shot to pieces on approach unless you dedicate clouds to protecting them, which i'm sorry, Gorman and a 7 point trio unit have better things to do than escort and deliver a 2 shot on average smite-on-a-stick. I can see using Burning ash to help out from Lukas, which is where i've gotten the most mileage out of them and yet ironically is where they are needed least due to Force Hammer. Most of the time they get spelled or shot to shit on approach, and when they get delivered, get one good smack off (maybe, even with mental force they hit DEF 14 half the time... which isn't horrible, but for a self-harm inflicting mechanism also isn't great), before the combination of mental force and incoming fire post-smite finishes the job. As i've said before: i have no issue with the self-infliction and eventual extinguishing aspect of these guys (or Lukas, fwiw), however, at least let them hit decent defense by upping their MAT to 5, preferably 6 (note, 7 would be too much, i 100% grant that), so they have a good shot at LANDING that oftentimes single attack they're going to get. If that's too much at least give them the +2 to hit on a charge so they don't have to Mental Force on that first attack and help their opponent along in squishing the shit out of them the following turn when they are a 13/11/5 defense stat'd model in melee. I just find them terribly underwhelming. I had nothing in range, but I had to advance and eat their effects or just not play. Then one charged. The ones that couldn't charge just buried themselves right in my lines and dared me to kill them. They don't actually have to attack to do their job, they explode like wracks that can attack. I don't like them because they're exceptionally reliable at forcing your opponent to tapdance around them, and that reliability seems outsize to their point cost to me.
|
|
Haight
Junior Strategist
Posts: 396
|
Post by Haight on Mar 21, 2018 16:05:34 GMT
I appreciate all that, however i'm just not certain "i didn't bring an unboostable Magic Ability 6, a boostable RAT 5, or an arc node on a caster with even a terrible nuke or did take them but either didn't or couldn't adjust those assets to where they could kill this terribly unsustainable in terms of staying power solo" is a particularly compelling argument as to why they are too good. Note i'm really NOT trying to be sarcastic or a jerk ; i'm sure if you take a mostly melee force with low or lowish defense, or even a balanced force with most of the ranged and / or magic and /or arc node components blasted out before you can bring them to bear, then they are truly compelling. That's quite a lot of ifs though.
|
|
Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
|
Post by Provengreil on Mar 21, 2018 16:59:23 GMT
No one's calling you a jerk, mate. I did have an arc node, but terrain is a thing, too, and these guys can outmaneuver a lot of opponents. One of the run-to-engagers was behind an obstruction, one was too far back to hit with anything but a scatter, and the last was on the other side of the map. I actually had a decent shot at that one anyway, because sunburst would have lit him on fire, but I scattered too far.
The issue for me is that if you miss that one chance, they'll cause problems for you well outside their point values.
EDIT: do note that I'm coming from a position with DEF 10 heavies in a slow faction covered in fire guns and blasts that are mostly going to be unplayable into this faction: Trancers will have an outsize effect into Menoth.
|
|
Haight
Junior Strategist
Posts: 396
|
Post by Haight on Mar 21, 2018 17:27:25 GMT
Oh i know you weren't calling me a jerk ; my writing style can be taken as snarky sometimes, and that's not how i wanted it to come off is all.
Fair, i can see how they'd be better appearing than normal against both Khador and Menoth. Those are good points. Maybe its just intended to be a situational solo? That's mostly fine except for the fact that its a limited faction. I dunno. It feels like a model that is close to being pretty decent, but still isn't quite there. Maybe i need to try 2+ again against a lower median defense opponent.
The terrain point is a good one, though do note while it has pathfinder, as a melee model, forests etc are just as vexing to it because it still needs to be able to draw LOS, and if it can, it can be shot or arc'd upon (albeit with even more defense, definitely).
|
|
Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
|
Post by Provengreil on Mar 21, 2018 17:50:01 GMT
Forests are NOT just as vexing though. It can perform quite a bit of its job role just by existing near some infantry. It's a land mine with an attack, and a potentially devastating one at that.
And why is a situational solo fine in a main faction but not in a limited one? They still take up list space, and the factions are mostly just divided into sharply limited themes by now anyway. Why would a limited faction be allowed to cover more ground with one list just because it has fewer pieces?
|
|
Haight
Junior Strategist
Posts: 396
|
Post by Haight on Mar 21, 2018 18:02:39 GMT
To the first part, True, but we return to our earlier debate over delivery. Once it pokes its head into LOS its not terrible hard to magic down. In order to use that big nice psychokinetic bomb of its, you have to wedge it into infantry in the first place, and that's hard to do when to hit things you need to self-harm, and to be hit your opponent doesn't need huge attack score numbers.
To the second question, because a limited application solo in a limited faction that doesn't have as many options and won't get fleshed out with more takes up a vital "spot" in the limited faction. Whereas a limited application solo in one of the main 5 in Warmachine will get, relatively, rolling releases at a greater rate and will always have more entries and entities than any limited faction. Even the leanest of the "main factions" will never catch up with the Prime 4.
It's not about covering more ground, its about them not having as many options, so all their choices need to have a clear defined role. Because if you're CoC and one of your things is kinda garbage, and you go almost 4 years without a release, and then in a (i think) 7 month time frame, you get 3 new ones, one of which is a merc available to everyone, another is a caster just for you, and another is a dual faction caster, that is harder for a limited faction to bear than one of the main 5. It is also harder for that ground to be made up by the limited faction.
So a mini fation doesn't require an answer for everything, but every piece in it should have a role and a well defined time and place. ANything that is even marginally muddled about its role and capabilities and place in lists should be brought up to snuff, even if its corner case or situational with one caster, because they are going to get less releases than others.
Maybe that changes with 12 months of xmas, or whatever it is called, maybe not. But to have a dead solo in a faction that has only a handful of solos in its stable is going to step towards stagnant lists. The solo isn't far off from being decent, but its a little busted right now.
|
|
|
Post by Trollock on Mar 21, 2018 18:19:12 GMT
My approach to them now is that 4 of them is a front line infantry unit. Some of them wont reach the battle (much like front line infantry over all) but some might, and they can cause a terrible mess while there. You definitely do not want to allow them to free strike, and you dont want to kill them where they stand either due to the blast and push.
A super fun mindgame with Gearhart would be to give them reciprocate and have them jam a heavy. Sure, it will most likely die to that heavy, but do they dare take the risk? if they miss they will be pushed d3 then slammed d6 away. Not good, but really frustrating to play against lol.
They might synergize well with Storm troopers. Tie the enemy up and then scatter blasts atop them.
|
|