Haight
Junior Strategist
Posts: 396
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Post by Haight on Mar 13, 2018 20:46:39 GMT
Syvestro change: A very, very slight nerf. Making Transmutation 3 cost makes it harder to hot swap , and more of a choice between Haze (super stealth is still stupid, its going to have its own library of rules rulings). Prima's advance move = 2" extra deployment. Probably a good change for balance. Lukas - Cleaning up Juicer wording is good. Locke - cleaning up Feat wording and creating less overall problems (also no more infinite mirror match issues). Somewhat of a nerf at first glance, though i daresay the precision strike change to melee only is a mild downgrade. I'm glad they didn't change Jackhammer to Return Fire honestly. Liberator gained True Sight. That's something! Morely - point increase to 4 is a start. I still think he's too good personally. Trancer - still weird. So with the blast thing, anything that i want to put a POW 12 on is unlikely to survive the experience, though i suppose the 2" push is situationally useful for things that won't die to it. Point drop to 3 isn't bad, but its still not great frankly. Change to Opus: Hutchuck and Gorman allowed. Very Nice.... now i get to remake, literally, all my lists but one. Assault and Storm troopers lost tough. Probably a good thing for Storm Troopers (though they are still crazy good), and probably not good for Assault troopers - I was still on the fence about using them as opposed to morely enhanced mercs, now there's less incentive other than cost.
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Post by gobber on Mar 13, 2018 20:56:41 GMT
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Post by killroundears on Mar 13, 2018 21:56:29 GMT
Lukas - remains a boring cloud wall caster who casts one of his spells/turn otherwise. Its hard to knock him having a cloud wall but its so boring when all he does is burning ash then cast one of disintegrate or force hammer per turn. Hope he receives an update that makes him more of a spell slinger and/or pushes his juicing mechanic to a more interesting spot
Syvestro - Transmute probably deserved the 3 cost, no complaint
Locke - Feat gutted, will be interesting to test now. Deserved a nerf, will see how big this one is in CG
Liberator - its still a node that kills itself, and true sight on nodes mostly just lets it see through clouds and have stealthed models block its LOS.
Assault troopers + Storm - Ehh, tough is a pretty minor benefit for these guys all things considered, like assaults have a 33% of needing a second attack to polish them off and even if they survive they just get a mat 7 PS13 at whoever hit them. They're both still exactly as good as they were before, and probably interact with morely even better now
Morely - Cost +1 is okay, hes very effective but hes also leading CGs only melee unit on small bases
Trancer - cost 3 is appreciated, i am now more compelled to bring them. they also removed that silly jank
Gorman + hutchuk - makes sense, i was really miffed they couldnt work for CG in the open theme wihtout taking your merc slot but could both work for the secret theme lol
Prima - deserved nerfing the advance move interaction with BEs. wonder what it'll do to mackay. Locke is definitely the Prima caster of choice now
Overall, a very small update of very minor finesse changes with the exception of Prima Materia and Locke, both of which were the standouts of week 1
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Haight
Junior Strategist
Posts: 396
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Post by Haight on Mar 13, 2018 23:19:39 GMT
I respectfully disagree with you on Lukas - i think he is the single most fun caster in the faction. I wish people would get over Burning Ash because his tool kit is so much fun and so varied and meshes with a ton of different takes. Unfortunately people are not creative and go full idjit lobotomy when playing him and just cock their head, drool, and spam burning ash. I agree with you KRE if that is all someone is doing, its incredibly boring to both play and play against. You'd probably like playing me where i play him very aggressively as a spell slinger (and have had fantastic results thus far).
True Sight on the Liberator i think is awesome and gives the faction some much needed, if limited, additional anti-stealth. I'm mostly okay with its shitty node as its a reason to take a mechanic and not get overly greedy on the slinging. It having Ashen Veil is also much appreciated both on approach and after the lines get mixed.
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Post by macdaddy on Mar 13, 2018 23:42:01 GMT
no changes to the battle engine caster or the engines after all the reports with issues is really weird....There was a lot of negative feedback about the caster
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Post by gobber on Mar 14, 2018 0:27:51 GMT
no changes to the battle engine caster or the engines after all the reports with issues is really weird....There was a lot of negative feedback about the caster I'm guessing this is just because they haven't landed on a solution yet rather than being an endorsement of her current state (especially since she's now weaker due to the prima materia changes)
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Post by macdaddy on Mar 14, 2018 0:32:37 GMT
no changes to the battle engine caster or the engines after all the reports with issues is really weird....There was a lot of negative feedback about the caster I'm guessing this is just because they haven't landed on a solution yet rather than being an endorsement of her current state (especially since she's now weaker due to the prima materia changes) That makes sense. I still think her list would be oppressive even without the advanced move. But Honestly have not played it myself. Just read a-lot of battle reports.
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Hashmal
Junior Strategist
Posts: 557
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Post by Hashmal on Mar 14, 2018 0:39:57 GMT
Advance Move was repeatedly called out as far too oppressive and it was removed. I think MacKay and Railless will still be a powerful wombo combo, but at least this stops her from totally running the board top of 1.
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Post by gobber on Mar 14, 2018 1:59:37 GMT
There was general agreement that the advance move was a problem, and that Mackay+Railless comboed to be too strong but many people identified advance move as the primary culprit and wanted to retest without that. A week of testing without advance move should give them a lot better data on the railless' power level with other casters which should help them decide whether any remaining issues are with Mackay's feat or the Railless itself. The resoundingly negative feedback on oil is really interesting as that ability is probably holding the light infantry back somewhat. However removing it would mean she has absolutely no support for infantry/reason to play in magnum opus... I have my fingers crossed for a little less-battlegroup-focused mackay once they figure out their design intent for her.
------------------------------------ Mackay[2] v Krueger2 Advance move OP, railless+Mackay OP but any changes might result in unusability elsewhere
Mackay[2] v denny2 Railless UP, opponent felt in needs boosting mechanic. Mackay has nice spells but the feat was underwhelming vs shooting resistant army
Morray v Mackay[2] Mackay feat OP but didn’t really come up in this game (more testing), she died to Lukas’ assassination
Mackay[0] v Skarre2 Mackay dies to assassination, it took all of skarre and kribby’s attacks; reserving judgement but thinks she’s powerful
Mackay[2] v Elara Mackaydies to assassination (list full of guns and a warcaster). Railless/Mackay combo OP. Mackay defensive stats are simultaneously on the weak side but are enough to provide an unpleasant skew against lists that can’t handle her.
Mackay[2] v Maelok AM excessive, mackay might be too good with interceptors, remove run & gun, oil was useless
Mackay[1] v Kallus2 AM excessive, otherwise they’re probably fine
Mackay[2] v Crosse, Ossrum Summarized rant: combo is OP, consider shortening sprays
Mackay[2] vs Dreamer, Krueger2 Mackay worked well, railless struggle to perform outside of feat turn
Mackay[2] vs Lylyth1 AM excessive. Mackay might be a bit over the top, suggest removing flare. Railless are fine. Mackay[2] vs Maelok Summarized rant: mackay/railless combo presents excessive assassination threat
Mackay[2] v Orion Railless and Mackay are both fine but the combo is OP, remove AM then retest. Questions design intent (battlegroup vs railless, Locke already taking melee BG caster space); nerf feat/railless as needed so she can be changed to synergize with them even more.
Mackay[2] v Zaadesh2 AM excessive, Mackay OP, suggest focus5, oil is dead ability, she’s concealing railless’ issues
Mackay[0] v Syvestro Mackay’s personal output/durability OP, lower WJP, drop flare and oil (useless)
Mackay[2] v Skarre1 AM excessive, otherwise positive feedback
Mackay[2] v Calaban, Maelok Mackay’s oil was useless even with CG infantry. Railless (in magnum opus without AM) were green, dependent on run and gun to survive
Mackay[2] v Kaya1 AM excessive, Mackay OP, Mackay/railless’ reposition makes them hard to trade with
Mackay[2] v OW3 Mackay’s feat needs more testing, probably fine. Otherwise greens. Mackay[2] v Maelok Railless OP, Mackay Green
Mackay[2] v Maelok, Mackay[0] v Doomy1 Concerned about mackay’s low WJP. Opponents thought railless OP, player thought UP (squishy)
Mackay[2] v Thags1 Player: Mackay UP, focused starved. Railless lacked output. Opponent: railless was green, wouldn’t mind if vet leader was buffed to elite cadre
Mackay[2] v Coven Questions battlegroup/BE design intent, generally positive on her performance. Railless was adequate, suggests buffing its melee.
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Post by Trollock on Mar 14, 2018 10:13:50 GMT
So... nothing really changed? Lockes feat was nerfed (probably for good reason) and otherwise nothing significant? ok, the advanced move thing was important too, but i think i like this better over all.
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Haight
Junior Strategist
Posts: 396
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Post by Haight on Mar 14, 2018 10:28:05 GMT
In that feedback breakdown, is it me, or is the general consensus literally all over the place in terms of MacKay and Railess power level (whereas its consistent in AM is terribad) ?
I find that interesting.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Mar 14, 2018 11:42:33 GMT
In that feedback breakdown, is it me, or is the general consensus literally all over the place in terms of MacKay and Railess power level (whereas its consistent in AM is terribad) ? I find that interesting. I know you are not a massive fan of the Railless and Mackay, but I think any buffs have to consider just how potent an assassin she can be.
with Spd 6 and Dual Attack she can charge 9", potentially using Bulldoze to dig deeper, and then Spray 10", so that's a 19" threat on her Ice sprays.
She also has her mortar with Arcing Fire and Flare (plus maybe eyeless sight from Alyce), so she can boost the hit, and then the damage is boosted by the feat, she then follows this up with 2 x rat 9 pow 14 sprays, with boosted attack and damage. which cannot be Shield Guarded and don't need to actually target their caster.
she can then repo to allow the other two railless to come in and spray their Ice guns at effective rat 9 pow 14 boosted damage, assuming your opponent has not given you direct LOS to shoot with the cannon, you can also try to land the pow 8 boosted blast damage on them. If you can draw LOS then you can drop the boosted pow 15 on their head as well
All this is assuming you are not within flamethrower range, if you are then that is another 3 x rat 9 pow 12s with boosted damage.
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Post by Trollock on Mar 14, 2018 12:28:42 GMT
In that feedback breakdown, is it me, or is the general consensus literally all over the place in terms of MacKay and Railess power level (whereas its consistent in AM is terribad) ? I find that interesting. I know you are not a massive fan of the Railless and Mackay, but I think any buffs have to consider just how potent an assassin she can be.
with Spd 6 and Dual Attack she can charge 9", potentially using Bulldoze to dig deeper, and then Spray 10", so that's a 19" threat on her Ice sprays.
She also has her mortar with Arcing Fire and Flare (plus maybe eyeless sight from Alyce), so she can boost the hit, and then the damage is boosted by the feat, she then follows this up with 2 x rat 9 pow 14 sprays, with boosted attack and damage. which cannot be Shield Guarded and don't need to actually target their caster.
she can then repo to allow the other two railless to come in and spray their Ice guns at effective rat 9 pow 14 boosted damage, assuming your opponent has not given you direct LOS to shoot with the cannon, you can also try to land the pow 8 boosted blast damage on them. If you can draw LOS then you can drop the boosted pow 15 on their head as well
All this is assuming you are not within flamethrower range, if you are then that is another 5 x rat 9 pow 12s with boosted damage.
What? 5 Flame Throwers? I can only see one on each model...
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Mar 14, 2018 12:38:23 GMT
I know you are not a massive fan of the Railless and Mackay, but I think any buffs have to consider just how potent an assassin she can be.
with Spd 6 and Dual Attack she can charge 9", potentially using Bulldoze to dig deeper, and then Spray 10", so that's a 19" threat on her Ice sprays.
She also has her mortar with Arcing Fire and Flare (plus maybe eyeless sight from Alyce), so she can boost the hit, and then the damage is boosted by the feat, she then follows this up with 2 x rat 9 pow 14 sprays, with boosted attack and damage. which cannot be Shield Guarded and don't need to actually target their caster.
she can then repo to allow the other two railless to come in and spray their Ice guns at effective rat 9 pow 14 boosted damage, assuming your opponent has not given you direct LOS to shoot with the cannon, you can also try to land the pow 8 boosted blast damage on them. If you can draw LOS then you can drop the boosted pow 15 on their head as well
All this is assuming you are not within flamethrower range, if you are then that is another 5 x rat 9 pow 12s with boosted damage.
What? 5 Flame Throwers? I can only see one on each model... it's 3, I had a brain fart, have corrected it
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Haight
Junior Strategist
Posts: 396
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Post by Haight on Mar 14, 2018 13:54:55 GMT
In that feedback breakdown, is it me, or is the general consensus literally all over the place in terms of MacKay and Railess power level (whereas its consistent in AM is terribad) ? I find that interesting. I know you are not a massive fan of the Railless and Mackay, but I think any buffs have to consider just how potent an assassin she can be.
with Spd 6 and Dual Attack she can charge 9", potentially using Bulldoze to dig deeper, and then Spray 10", so that's a 19" threat on her Ice sprays.
She also has her mortar with Arcing Fire and Flare (plus maybe eyeless sight from Alyce), so she can boost the hit, and then the damage is boosted by the feat, she then follows this up with 2 x rat 9 pow 14 sprays, with boosted attack and damage. which cannot be Shield Guarded and don't need to actually target their caster.
she can then repo to allow the other two railless to come in and spray their Ice guns at effective rat 9 pow 14 boosted damage, assuming your opponent has not given you direct LOS to shoot with the cannon, you can also try to land the pow 8 boosted blast damage on them. If you can draw LOS then you can drop the boosted pow 15 on their head as well
All this is assuming you are not within flamethrower range, if you are then that is another 3 x rat 9 pow 12s with boosted damage.
So i should probably clarify: I know its good, i just find it boring AF. This is my real issue with the railess - with McKay, they are bullshit good for a turn, pretty good outside the feat turn, and their very presence adds a Miserable Meat Mountain quality to lists running 2. I don't like the footprint issue that running 2 creates, but i recognize it as a good armor/box skew, and their damage output with increased accuracy with MCKay and debuffs can't be ignored. Without McKay they're kinda Meh. Sure a super nice armor / box skew, and a high quantity of attack output, but if you sink 36 points into Railess, you're still mustering a POW capped at 15, whereas there are 17's and 18's available. Here's the conundrum. How do you cool Railess down just a touch with McKay but keep from making them shittier with other casters? The answer is simple: either nix Veteran Leader, which seems counter-intuitive to McKay, or alter the feat from Boosted damage on constructs to either boosted damage on battlegroup (neutering the railess effectively), or instead of a boost, +2 (or maybe 3?) damage instead. There are other ideas but i am keeping in the travel lane of what's already there so to speak. The first would gut railess and put McKay more firmly into a Battlegroup caster, so i 'm not sure that's wise to do or is desired. The second would limit spikes, but still keep output high on feat turn - and thereby still encourage probably 2 railess. If you go with +2 or 3 damage only, its a more widely applied, but limited Baldwin Feat with magic attacks in for measure that doesn't affect infantry, which seems also like something not too great. What if you remove the ability for Battle Engines to Repo ? Would this fix the worst of it ? It then becomes a slowish alpha ; sure you can mobility up and get stuck in hard with McKay and a BE or two, but you better do your damage (which, you probably will) and remove what you're looking to remove, because you're in counter threat range thereafter. Would this suffice ? FWIW, i think the removal of advance move is a good move, that was abusive.
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