Choco
Junior Strategist
Gorten, best feet in the game.
Posts: 571
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Post by Choco on Mar 9, 2018 21:16:13 GMT
I feel you on Gearhart. His spell list is good, his Feat is better on paper than practice, and his guns are nice, but he has real Focus problems if he wants to do much with them and cast anything. Or power 'jacks. I am feeling the lack of Focus support in-faction. Plus, his gun game is countered by most anti-shooting tech. I would have liked him to be lobbing out debuffs with every attack, but alas. I also kind of want Catalytic Detonator to be RNG 10. He will likely have to expose to use it on heavy targets and that's probably not worth the risk. I love the character of him, but I think he's probably in the running for one of the faction's weakest 'casters. That said, I also have issues with MacKay, but I haven't dug into her with theorizing and list development yet. Syvestro and Lukas both look strong and fun. Locke might be too much, but I need to see if that plays out on the table. I feel the same on gearheart. I think he has one of the weaker spell lists (though don't get me wrong, its still nice, but 3/5 of these casters have holy shit good spell lists), and his feat is probably the weakest of the bunch (there's a lot of counter play to this feat which people who are saying its super good are either not giving credence to or are ignoring / downplaying - less counter play than to Prey in general because you can time when to pop it, but there's certainly counter play). There's another glaring weakness to gearhart. Kill Jeeves the gun caddy and you severely limit probably the best thing about Gearhart which is the gun for all seasons. He loses the reload and the variability in shots. To get those benefits, CLogg has to be B2B with gearhart - granted as a ranged oriented caster he'll be back a touch, but still, a btb, attached, dual special action attachment with 13/11 (capable of 13 vs ranged and magic via decl in fairness), with 5 boxes is a bit of a handicap. At least Reinholdt has a high native defense in his favor, and squire's isn't shabby. I know that Cloggs issues are mostly the issues with attachments period, but still, you lose this attachment, and the caster loses a ton of his functionality. Combined with the good but not great spell list, the median focus with a strong desire to cast at least a spell if not more a turn, and a feat that punishes the dumb, but can be counterplayed by a savvy opponent, and he's rounding out near the bottom of the pile in my estimation. ANother issue with Gearhart: he comes with his own attachment, which means he can't take Alyce Marc or Reinholdt, which means he has no inborn method of stealth ignoring for any of his shots past his spray, which means if you want to ignore stealth with any shot past your spray, you're stuck with a crawler (unless you count Flare from McKay in a 2 caster game, which i do not). A ranged caster with no purchased or inherent way to get around stealth for 3/4 of your shot types is not optimal. Right now, as they stand, i really like Lukas and Locke, though i have some balance concerns with Lukas all around, and Locke in CoC. McKay seems uninspired but functional (though i kinda want a battle engine focused caster / list oriented combo to have a more exciting superlative than "functional". ) Sylvestro i think is close, i think downgrading super stealth to stealth and capping the free spell effect at 3 focus or less costing spells and you're basically good to go with him. Gearhart though... cool concept. Not sure about the current implementation. The good parts about Gearhart is that he does offer a good amount of support - veteran leaders to infantry as well as decel, hot shot to ranged jacks (the spray jacks are gonna love this), Boundless charge for more threat... but his personal offensive output is questionable, and for a caster where the focus is OMG, All the guns!, its a bit odd that his design seems more geared up for a support role rather than being on the offensive - because you can hamstring him with a single surgical, and not hard to kill, (even with decel up, a POW 11 kills Clogg unboosted half the time if it connects - and if gearhart is attacking, you're within 12" of a target which is not a huge threat range, so you're probably at most 13" threat range from clogg). Dunno, most of the other ones "click", but something's off about gearhart. What do you think he is missing? Clogg is immune to blasts, so he can't die from those. He activates first and then Gearhart walks away from him, so he's hopefully less easily target-able. I personally think the only thing Gearhart is missing is an offensive spell that deal damage. I'm thinking Eruption or Gallows would be good options for him. And not as a replacement, as an additional spell.
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Haight
Junior Strategist
Posts: 396
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Post by Haight on Mar 9, 2018 21:53:58 GMT
It's a great question, one i've struggled to answer thus far. If i come up with something balanced i'll be sure to share. He just feels off currently. Right now i can see the point of all the other casters ; Lukas is a spell assassin with a somewhat trappy melee focus. Syvestro (fun fact... there's no L in his name... that's gonna be harder to kick than smoking...) is a support caster extraordinaire, Locke is a jack beater enabler, McKay is a construct buffer (though i think she's a little flat right now too).
Gearhart feels like he has a foot in "ranged caster" and a foot in "support caster", and does each decent, but neither extremely well. If McKay falls a bit flat other than feat turn (to me), Gearhart so far is a cool idea that is a swing and miss in application. I'm not sure what to do to fix it though... maybe i need to look at different combinations of models with him.
I'll be honest i don't think an offensive spell is the answer. He's got a RNG 13 magic gun, that's his anti-incorp policy right there and nuke spells for the most part suck unless they are threat extenders with good to hit scores - unfortunately a 6 focus caster who wants to often be casting a spell worth half his payload, and upkeeping another quality buff, isn't going to have the focus to spare for a nuke often. In many cases you wouldn't want the nuke either, opting for a ranged attack with Magic damage type.
EDIT: What about Sacrificial Pawn on Clogg ? It would still keep open spell assassination, but help keep him safe from ranged. Feels like a good middling compromise.
I dunno, i'm not even sure with that I think that gearhart is in the same place Lukas / Locke / Syvestro are in terms of feeling like they do what they do well (regardless of relative power level).
EDIT 2: So after re-looking at convergence, i am worried that Locke's power level in CoC is going to ultimately get her best kit changed in CG, and Firetruck her utility up inside CG. I really hope that's not the case, but i'm not sure you can have a caster with that feat, engine of destruction, and jackhammer in CoC, cuz holy shit, is that powerful. By contrast if they change her to avoid bullshitness inside CoC and she ends up not being that great in CG due to balancing her in CoC, that's going to be a real shame, because I currently LOVE her kit and what she can pull in CG, and its unlike anything the other casters in faction can run and pull (and its clever AF design too which i really appreciate).
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Choco
Junior Strategist
Gorten, best feet in the game.
Posts: 571
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Post by Choco on Mar 9, 2018 22:03:09 GMT
I like that idea for Clogg. What if we were to enhance the idea of him being a ranged support caster? What about Snipe, or Fire Group? Maybe he drops Boundless Charge?
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Haight
Junior Strategist
Posts: 396
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Post by Haight on Mar 9, 2018 22:09:50 GMT
Yeck, snipe is a bridge too far. Look at the Vindicator. 19" threat range on that gun is not something i could support. Even sniping up Baldwin himself would give him a gun with RNG effective 19 (so threat 24 - that's half the table), with Shadowbind on hit. Can't get behind that. Good suggestion, but i think ultimately doesn't bear out with everything else going on. Fire Group - perhaps? THing is he already has Hotshot, so if you give him firegroup, you're saying on any given turn you're choosing to fully support your jacks, or casting Decel. That's not an awful thing, but he already has a spell that is super attractive to the Spray jacks. Fire group is certainly less offensive than snipe though, absolutely, though threat 22 on that shadowbind gun is still pretty gnarly). It's thorny. Everything i think of either feels lackluster or wicked bullshit. Conversely if you drop Boundless, you're giving up threat enhancement for the infantry he's pretty solidly designed to support (decel, vet leader, etc). Sure you're tacking the see-saw towards ranged support more... I dunno. It's like the caster is trying to do 3 things well, and not really doing any of them spectacularly, whereas there are 3-4 other choices of caster that do their thing REALLY well, and dip a toe into something else, where gearhart is trying to do too much. EDIT: Also could someone who CID's please suggest they change the name of Acid Bomb on Alyce Marc to Acid grenade / flask / decanter / ramekin / whatever or something like that. It is a named weapon that is exactly the same as the named rule (attack type) Acid Bomb on Gorman, both have the same Range, same damage type, same AOE, same continuous effect, but one is a POW 12 damage roll, and the other is a POW 12 gun. Which is to say, its a rule with an identical naming convention that behaves different depending on which model the rule is on. While the distinction of Attack Type vs. Ranged Weapon is there, i really loathe inconsistencies of this nature, it's so dogganm close as to drive my inner pedant crazy.
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Choco
Junior Strategist
Gorten, best feet in the game.
Posts: 571
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Post by Choco on Mar 9, 2018 22:27:31 GMT
Deadeye? This could be an interesting option.
What if Clogg had an aura that could be used? Instead of him being immune to blast damage, what about a 3 inch aura around him of immune to blast damage?
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Haight
Junior Strategist
Posts: 396
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Post by Haight on Mar 9, 2018 22:34:30 GMT
Deadeye is a nice idea, though the screams of BS to the heavens will be deafening. I will never, ever, for the life of me, understand the hate that MK1/2 tough or Deadeye get.
THe aura thing - good thinking, but if the issue is Gearharts lack of focus and Cloggs survivability, replacing Hit the Deck with a 3" aura of no blast doesn't help Gearhart FOcus, doesn't make clogg more survivable, and could open abuses to alchemists.
What about remove hit the deck and give Clogg Force Barrier ? This would make him def 15 vs incoming ranged and immune to blast. Then i can forgive the rest of the clunk surrounding him.
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Post by gobber on Mar 9, 2018 23:42:45 GMT
Adding to the unique challenge of balancing Locke is that she can take Toros and Vanguards in Cyriss. I'm not sure she'll want to since they don't count towards free points and can't be buffed by anything but locke herself, but I'm really hoping to have the opportunity to convert a blended convergence/crucible army...
I'd love to see mackay get a little less battlegroup focused as she struggles to put up mobility and doesn't need pathfinder herself... My current thought is that swapping mobility for crusader's call would be a big boon for her for the support it'd provide the battle engines as well as the heavy infantry which are notably available in prima materia
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skormedlover87
Junior Strategist
Desperately searching for days off to game...
Posts: 517
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Post by skormedlover87 on Mar 10, 2018 5:47:45 GMT
I suspect the best use of Cloggs will be to give Gearhart his preferred gun turn 1, then only reload for the remainder of the game. You'll just have to get good at determining which you'll need in a given game.
I wonder if you could write a rule that would affect Mr. Cloggs like take up, but for friendly faction warrior models (maybe just CG Infantry). Where Baldwins such a putz, he doesn't even notice when his manservant dies/is horribly crippled. He just keeps referring to the new guy as Cloggs and acts as if nothing happened.
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Post by lovehugs on Mar 10, 2018 13:45:03 GMT
I'm really keen on running Locke. A couple of Toros, supressor, vindicator and a liberator. Throw a Vulcan on Prospero and you've got a list pretty much.
I think jackhammer/countercharge is some nice synergy and throwing out free bombshells on feat turn seems fun.
The liberator is tough. Def15* Arm19*, definitely worth slinging spells through and just being mad aggressive with it.
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Haight
Junior Strategist
Posts: 396
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Post by Haight on Mar 10, 2018 16:29:34 GMT
Adding to the unique challenge of balancing Locke is that she can take Toros and Vanguards in Cyriss. I'm not sure she'll want to since they don't count towards free points and can't be buffed by anything but locke herself, but I'm really hoping to have the opportunity to convert a blended convergence/crucible army... I'd love to see mackay get a little less battlegroup focused as she struggles to put up mobility and doesn't need pathfinder herself... My current thought is that swapping mobility for crusader's call would be a big boon for her for the support it'd provide the battle engines as well as the heavy infantry which are notably available in prima materia Cool idea. I kind of disagree on her design vector though ; she's the most battlegroup focused of all the casters, and i sort of like that Niche with her. Granted she's ... got a lot going on, and some of it could use some balancing or removal (i mean, vital magic and resourceful, on a caster that also has Field Marshal Precision with Jackhammer and out of activation attack potential on feat turn). However i do really like that she is CG's battlegroup jack focused caster. I feel like if they reduce her jack focus and put some more blended support, she'll sort of lose that unique niche, because the rest of them are (with exception of Gearhart) pretty blended support. Just me. Right now my biggest concern with her is that she's got a little too many things going for her, and she's utter BS in CoC (she can outperform Mom's feat every turn if she chooses in terms of MAT buff to battlegroup).
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juckto
Junior Strategist
Posts: 124
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Hot Takes
Mar 11, 2018 5:30:09 GMT
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Post by juckto on Mar 11, 2018 5:30:09 GMT
I suspect the best use of Cloggs will be to give Gearhart his preferred gun turn 1, then only reload for the remainder of the game. You'll just have to get good at determining which you'll need in a given game. I wonder if you could write a rule that would affect Mr. Cloggs like take up, but for friendly faction warrior models (maybe just CG Infantry). Where Baldwins such a putz, he doesn't even notice when his manservant dies/is horribly crippled. He just keeps referring to the new guy as Cloggs and acts as if nothing happened. Name of rule: "So hard to find good help"
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Post by gobber on Mar 11, 2018 8:08:37 GMT
Adding to the unique challenge of balancing Locke is that she can take Toros and Vanguards in Cyriss. I'm not sure she'll want to since they don't count towards free points and can't be buffed by anything but locke herself, but I'm really hoping to have the opportunity to convert a blended convergence/crucible army... I'd love to see mackay get a little less battlegroup focused as she struggles to put up mobility and doesn't need pathfinder herself... My current thought is that swapping mobility for crusader's call would be a big boon for her for the support it'd provide the battle engines as well as the heavy infantry which are notably available in prima materia Cool idea. I kind of disagree on her design vector though ; she's the most battlegroup focused of all the casters, and i sort of like that Niche with her. Granted she's ... got a lot going on, and some of it could use some balancing or removal (i mean, vital magic and resourceful, on a caster that also has Field Marshal Precision with Jackhammer and out of activation attack potential on feat turn). However i do really like that she is CG's battlegroup jack focused caster. I feel like if they reduce her jack focus and put some more blended support, she'll sort of lose that unique niche, because the rest of them are (with exception of Gearhart) pretty blended support. Just me. Right now my biggest concern with her is that she's got a little too many things going for her, and she's utter BS in CoC (she can outperform Mom's feat every turn if she chooses in terms of MAT buff to battlegroup). I'm confused by this response. I never suggested removing Locke's battlegroup focus; but rather Mackay?
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Haight
Junior Strategist
Posts: 396
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Post by Haight on Mar 11, 2018 13:42:20 GMT
My comment was going off in a couple directions ; really the first sentence is towards you (it is a cool idea), and the rest is basically me ruminating on Locke. I'm worried that to balance her in CoC will require things that will make her Meh in CG. Locke, that is. My comment never touched on McKay, and i really should have done a better job of making that clear. My Fault ! What would you remove for McKay's battlegroup focus out of curiosity? I'm not overwhelmed with her abilities right now - few tricks, not nearly as tank as she looks on paper (10/19 with 36 boxes is good, but its less difficult to take out than your average khador jack. Sure she has focus, but McKay is not a caster that will be sitting on much turn to turn). Right now she seems goodish, but i think Syvestro, Lukas, and Locke are all an echelon higher in quality as they currently stand. Removing Mobility would make her basically terrible in my estimation, and Jumpstart at least keeps her humming along in situations that would otherwise drain resources. I'm just curious what you would do with her. One thing that is disappointing is that apart from feat turn, railess basically aren't that great with her.
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Post by gobber on Mar 11, 2018 21:08:42 GMT
What would you remove for McKay's battlegroup focus out of curiosity? I'm not overwhelmed with her abilities right now - few tricks, not nearly as tank as she looks on paper (10/19 with 36 boxes is good, but its less difficult to take out than your average khador jack. Sure she has focus, but McKay is not a caster that will be sitting on much turn to turn). Right now she seems goodish, but i think Syvestro, Lukas, and Locke are all an echelon higher in quality as they currently stand. Removing Mobility would make her basically terrible in my estimation, and Jumpstart at least keeps her humming along in situations that would otherwise drain resources. I'm just curious what you would do with her. One thing that is disappointing is that apart from feat turn, railess basically aren't that great with her. Here was my previous post: "I'd love to see mackay get a little less battlegroup focused as she struggles to put up mobility and doesn't need pathfinder herself... My current thought is that swapping mobility for crusader's call would be a big boon for her for the support it'd provide the battle engines as well as the heavy infantry which are notably available in prima materia" I really don't value mobility on her. Between battle engines and mechaniks you've got easy access to pathfinder already. The lists I want to build with her just don't have the space to fit enough jacks for it to feel worthwhile. You can go for an all battlegroup list, but I'd rather that be Locke's niche. Railless and and a possible jack on Prospero competing for points, and Mackay's inability to fuel jacks without prospero mean that I'm starting to think mobility is a trap and her best battlegroup might just be two vanguards. Crusader's call on the other hand would encourage a railless+heavy infantry list which would give her much more of a unique place
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Haight
Junior Strategist
Posts: 396
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Post by Haight on Mar 11, 2018 21:18:53 GMT
Interesting !
See I like mobility on her, because most of the lists i've made with her have several Toro's in it, and i don't want them getting bogged. My concern with Railess' with her is that on feat turn, solid, they will rock, but outside that they will struggle to find boosted damage on their otherwise decent hitting power.
If your idea is drop mobility and give something that would help Railess be more of a threat outside of feat turn i'm cool with that, though it would be a fulcrum turn for her.
We should both try something: you try taking McKay without railess, and i'll try with taking 1-2 with her and see if our positions differ at the outcome / compare notes.
I can see your point on Locke, though i want to see what happens to her as they smooth out the apex-to-nadir balance issues with her across her two factions. I do agree that Prospero is a near auto take with her for resource reasons alone. Mobility is only a trap though if you're not taking Alyce with her - at which point its a 2 cost spell to get your battlegroup +2 SPD and pathfinder, and that's right fine by me as most of the time i'm only going to cast the spell 1-2 times. Of course, Alyce costs more points that are in short supply with McKay! I also like ALyce with McKay for the eyeless sight granting which is really key i think, and empower is just never bad, so i think she's worth the expense for what she offers McKay.
My main issue with Crusaders call is that while its friendly faction, it does not mitigate rough terrain, which means mechanics become your sole source of granting jacks pathfinder. Not the end of the world, but one of the things i like about mobility is it makes stuff run significantly faster on turn 1 AND grants pathfinder (but clearly is battlegroup only).
We'll see... i think you're ideas are interesting and well thought out, i just think we're looking at playing McKay a little differently - but i can see where you're coming from on keeping Locke the Battlegroup junkie, and giving McKay a somewhat more distinct role.
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