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Post by robbleyourworld on Feb 23, 2018 16:33:13 GMT
I built this list in my caster challenge and really liked it but needed to move onto other warlocks. I still want to play this list and think it has chops outside of simply trying something different so I wanted to make another post to develop on it. Here's the list in its current form: conflictchamber.com/#c7201b_-0GfL9D0h0j0jjq6Gj20li-iZezeziTbKTrollbloods Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Storm of the North (Ragnor 1) Ragnor Skysplitter, The Runemaster [+30] - Dire Troll Mauler [15] - Troll Axer [10] - Troll Bouncer [9] - Troll Bouncer [9] - Trollkin Runebearer [0(5)] Fell Caller Hero [5] Valka Curseborn, Chieftain of the North [0(6)] Krielstone Bearer & Stone Scribes (max) [9] - Northkin Elder [3] Northkin Bear Handle & Battle Bears [10] Northkin Fire Eaters [7] Northkin Fire Eaters [7] Trollkin Champions (max) [16] - Skaldi Bonehammer [5] I have two primary issues right now: 1. I really want to fit Lynus & Edrea in there to deal with clouds. I've tried it without a runebearer and didn't like the experience also I think spell slave with ragnor's spell list is too potent to give up on (particularly hex blast). I could possibly drop Skaldi, Valka, or the Fell Caller (all of which I really like) but I'll have to play around with it. 2. I'm not sure what to pair it with. I've really only had much testing against cygnar but I think it can have a game into a fair bit of whats in the meta. I think it won't have fun into CoC and my experience with grymkin is so minimal I can't help but assume they'll be a problem. I'm thinking about Doomy3 because he can probably go into CoC and survive but he also presents a similar question as Ragnor, albeit in a different way, so I might be able to avoid list chicken situations. Not sure though so I'm open to suggestions
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Post by ninjastars on Feb 23, 2018 16:54:12 GMT
1. I'd drop the fell caller. you have a lot of pathfinder from other sources and the feat at least gives you the possibility of an accuracy buff.
2. Doomie3 might have a problem with grymkin because they have the anti-healing arcana, and Ragnar's feat might not be strong enough to overcome grymkin damage output. I know Kolgrima is the answer to everything these days.... but she could be the answer, since horgle might have trouble with shooting lists and control feats. Maybe Guunborne or Grissel 2 could fill that role as well
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Post by robbleyourworld on Feb 23, 2018 17:08:19 GMT
1. I'd drop the fell caller. you have a lot of pathfinder from other sources and the feat at least gives you the possibility of an accuracy buff. 2. Doomie3 might have a problem with grymkin because they have the anti-healing arcana, and Ragnar's feat might not be strong enough to overcome grymkin damage output. I know Kolgrima is the answer to everything these days.... but she could be the answer, since horgle might have trouble with shooting lists and control feats. Maybe Guunborne or Grissel 2 could fill that role as well How does the feat provide an accuracy buff? I've played a bit of Kolgrima and agree that she can answer a lot of questions but I don't think she's a great answer to CoC, she can have a game but I feel like its still pretty heavily in their favor. I wasn't planning on including Horgle in the pair as he's pretty meh from my experience and kind of boring (a combo I'm not a fan of). Gunny might not be too bad since its really only a couple of matchups I'm worried about and he can do pretty well into at least the CoC game. What does Grissel2 bring to answer CoC or grymkin? deflection? against CoC her gun seems like it will just be shield guarded away to a steady jack or just hit a solo. My knowledge on Grymkin is... lacking so I haven't a clue on that matchup
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Post by Phlushot on Feb 23, 2018 17:50:49 GMT
I would definitely NOT drop the Fell Caller. Fire Eaters don't have Pathfinder and while Relentless Charge is great there are plenty of times where charging isn't an option and you need to get them somewhere. Plus a charge of 8-9 inches is definitely not the same as a run of 10-12. With your list I really don't like running Fire Eaters without a Pyre to light'em up. Ragnor in SotN is ironically something I was also playing with a couple days ago (and then subsequently found your other thread). I was looking at something like: conflictchamber.com/#c7201b_-0GfLjniU0hjq6G6T0li-6miZiZTrollbloods Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Storm of the North (Ragnor 1) Ragnor Skysplitter, The Runemaster [+30] - Dire Troll Brawler [16] - Rok [19] - Troll Axer [10] - Trollkin Runebearer [0(5)] Fell Caller Hero [0(5)] Horthol, Long Rider Hero [8] Krielstone Bearer & Stone Scribes (max) [9] - Northkin Elder [3] Long Riders (max) [20] Northkin Bear Handle & Battle Bears [10] Northkin Bear Handle & Battle Bears [10] I'm going with the idea that I can drop Pulverizer on something and hopefully leave it there for free the majority of the game. I picked Long Riders and Bears because I wanted things that could maximize on surviving with the feat and still be dangerous. Brawler can be Pow 19 with an 11 threat or 21 with a 10 inch threat. Or I can send in Horthol at Pow 19. Or maybe swap solos around and get Valka in there for some Pow 16 weaponmaster action? Maybe swap Horthol for 2 Shamans (that's a frequent dilemma for me) if I'm lacking quantity of attacks?
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Post by Trollock on Feb 23, 2018 19:55:18 GMT
Since you have only 2 free solos in the original list, the smallest change i can make and still fulfill you requirements would be to drop a Bouncer. Then you add a min unit of Raiders and L&E. I do not particularly like the raiders here though, and you can probably get a better list if you are willing to make more changes to fiddle around with the points.
If you take a Mist Speaker to aid with clouds instead for example, you could replace the Bouncer with a Mist Speaker + a second unit of bears. I think you should shoot for 3 free solos, or try and take more advantage of only having to take 40 points of units while you are at it. This list feels like you are sacrificing the third solo for very little benefit.
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ravenfire
Junior Strategist
Me Mulg me SMASSSSSHHHH
Posts: 244
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Post by ravenfire on Feb 23, 2018 20:08:01 GMT
or downgrade the bouncers and the axer to 3 bashers. pow 19 bashers is nothing . to sneeze at and now you have 5 points for your unit and 2 points for a feralgeist
the basher has native pathfinder and can benefit from the northkin elder for speed and thus mitigating the need for the axer.
or keep one bouncer and have 5 points for the unit.
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Post by robbleyourworld on Feb 26, 2018 0:31:42 GMT
I would definitely NOT drop the Fell Caller. Fire Eaters don't have Pathfinder and while Relentless Charge is great there are plenty of times where charging isn't an option and you need to get them somewhere. Plus a charge of 8-9 inches is definitely not the same as a run of 10-12. With your list I really don't like running Fire Eaters without a Pyre to light'em up. Ragnor in SotN is ironically something I was also playing with a couple days ago (and then subsequently found your other thread). I was looking at something like: conflictchamber.com/#c7201b_-0GfLjniU0hjq6G6T0li-6miZiZTrollbloods Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Storm of the North (Ragnor 1) Ragnor Skysplitter, The Runemaster [+30] - Dire Troll Brawler [16] - Rok [19] - Troll Axer [10] - Trollkin Runebearer [0(5)] Fell Caller Hero [0(5)] Horthol, Long Rider Hero [8] Krielstone Bearer & Stone Scribes (max) [9] - Northkin Elder [3] Long Riders (max) [20] Northkin Bear Handle & Battle Bears [10] Northkin Bear Handle & Battle Bears [10] I'm going with the idea that I can drop Pulverizer on something and hopefully leave it there for free the majority of the game. I picked Long Riders and Bears because I wanted things that could maximize on surviving with the feat and still be dangerous. Brawler can be Pow 19 with an 11 threat or 21 with a 10 inch threat. Or I can send in Horthol at Pow 19. Or maybe swap solos around and get Valka in there for some Pow 16 weaponmaster action? Maybe swap Horthol for 2 Shamans (that's a frequent dilemma for me) if I'm lacking quantity of attacks? I wasn't planning to drop the fell caller I just think he's too valuable pathfinder is always relevant, +2mat comes into play more games than not, and I just realized Reveille works on beasts which brings its stock up substantially. I tried long riders but decided I like champions better but that might be because I wasn't running 2 heavies, I will say they really enjoy Ragnor's feat though. I tried the Brawler and found that without a damage boost (no rage or primal in that list) I was forced to trade the brawler for one of their heavies since my lights couldn't manage it and it was quite rare to be a solid trade. That was with 1 heavy though so perhaps adding Rok in solves that issue and I've even been considering trading out the mauler for Rok. Valka is pretty awesome with pulverizer doing work on infantry and jack/beast alike if you can get him into your opponents infantry he just causes havoc. Horthol seems like a decent piece to put pulverizer on as well or downgrade the bouncers and the axer to 3 bashers. pow 19 bashers is nothing . to sneeze at and now you have 5 points for your unit and 2 points for a feralgeist the basher has native pathfinder and can benefit from the northkin elder for speed and thus mitigating the need for the axer. or keep one bouncer and have 5 points for the unit. So the bouncers are in there to protect against shooting and because they love Ragnor's feat. I've definitely considered bashers but 3 Bashers are going to be pretty hard on fury management assuming you want to treat them like anything other than missiles and then outside of feat turn will die pretty easily. I am considering dropping one of the bouncers though to fit in Lynus & Edrea or a Mist speaker which I'll probably give a whirl later this week Since you have only 2 free solos in the original list, the smallest change i can make and still fulfill you requirements would be to drop a Bouncer. Then you add a min unit of Raiders and L&E. I do not particularly like the raiders here though, and you can probably get a better list if you are willing to make more changes to fiddle around with the points. If you take a Mist Speaker to aid with clouds instead for example, you could replace the Bouncer with a Mist Speaker + a second unit of bears. I think you should shoot for 3 free solos, or try and take more advantage of only having to take 40 points of units while you are at it. This list feels like you are sacrificing the third solo for very little benefit. For some reason I just hadn't realized I was 3 points under making the Fell caller hero free which actually makes the decision on what to move around a bit different. I like my infantry load out a lot right now and removing a ton doesn't seem ideal for me with this list. I added in a sorcerer to get the fell caller for free + a feralgeist which was quite nice but it does make it seem like dropping a bouncer is worth trying to fit edrea/mist speaker. here's the changes I'm toying with Trollbloods Army - 75 / 75 points
[Theme] Storm of the North
(Ragnor 1) Ragnor Skysplitter, The Runemaster [+30]
- Dire Troll Mauler [15]
- Troll Axer [10]
- Troll Bouncer [9]
- Trollkin Runebearer [0(5)]
Bog Trog Mist Speaker [4]
Fell Caller Hero [0(5)]
Valka Curseborn, Chieftain of the North [0(6)]
Krielstone Bearer & Stone Scribes (max) [9]
- Northkin Elder [3]
Northkin Bear Handle & Battle Bears [10]
Northkin Bear Handle & Battle Bears [10]
Northkin Fire Eaters [7]
Northkin Fire Eaters [7]
Trollkin Champions (max) [16]
- Skaldi Bonehammer [5]
| Trollbloods Army - 75 / 75 points
[Theme] Storm of the North
(Ragnor 1) Ragnor Skysplitter, The Runemaster [+30]
- Rok [19]
- Troll Axer [10]
- Troll Bouncer [9]
- Trollkin Runebearer [0(5)]
Fell Caller Hero [0(5)]
Feralgeist [2]
Valka Curseborn, Chieftain of the North [0(6)]
Krielstone Bearer & Stone Scribes (max) [9]
- Northkin Elder [3]
Lynus Wesselbaum & Edrea Lloryrr [5]
Northkin Bear Handle & Battle Bears [10]
Northkin Fire Eaters [7]
Northkin Fire Eaters [7]
Trollkin Champions (max) [16]
- Skaldi Bonehammer [5]
- Trollkin Sorcerer (1) [3]
| Trollbloods Army - 75 / 75 points
[Theme] Storm of the North
(Ragnor 1) Ragnor Skysplitter, The Runemaster [+30]
- Dire Troll Mauler [15]
- Troll Axer [10]
- Troll Bouncer [9]
- Troll Bouncer [9]
- Trollkin Runebearer [0(5)]
Fell Caller Hero [0(5)]
Krielstone Bearer & Stone Scribes (max) [9]
- Northkin Elder [3]
Lynus Wesselbaum & Edrea Lloryrr [5]
Northkin Bear Handle & Battle Bears [10]
Northkin Fire Eaters [7]
Northkin Fire Eaters [7]
Trollkin Champions (max) [16]
- Skaldi Bonehammer [5]
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Post by Phlushot on Feb 26, 2018 16:05:30 GMT
On your third list there it looks like if you drop a Bouncer you can add a 2nd bear unit which lets you take Skaldi free and frees up 4 points. Mist Speaker, Lanyssa, Mauler to Rok... the world is your oyster.
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Post by robbleyourworld on Feb 26, 2018 16:14:46 GMT
On your third list there it looks like if you drop a Bouncer you can add a 2nd bear unit which lets you take Skaldi free and frees up 4 points. Mist Speaker, Lanyssa, Mauler to Rok... the world is your oyster. True but thats the list including 2 bouncers because I think 2 bouncers is really good. I recognize that its almost painfully close to getting a 3rd free solo but at the same time I'm not completely sold that the third solo out weighs the utility of the second bouncer which is why I'm going to give all three lists a shot to see what I like best.
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Arcaux
Junior Strategist
Posts: 724
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Post by Arcaux on Feb 26, 2018 16:15:00 GMT
I think if you are going Ragnor in SotN you should really be considering Brawlers and a balanced list. Something like.
Ragnor (SotN) - Runebearer - Rok - Brawler - Brawler - Axer Max Stone + NE Battle Bears Battle Bears Min Longriders Fell Caller Hero
Nothing in that list is easy to kill on feat turn more importantly the list out threats and alphas most other lists and then is unkillable for a turn.
I think it looks solid.
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Post by robbleyourworld on Mar 15, 2018 3:52:03 GMT
Decided to get back to this. I took Acraux idea to heart and dropped down closer to ~40 points of units to include a larger battle group. I've basically come to these two lists I'm toying with conflictchamber.com/#c7201b_-0GfLjn9D0h0j0jjq6G0li-iZiZezez
Trollbloods Army - 75 / 75 points
[Theme] Storm of the North
(Ragnor 1) Ragnor Skysplitter, The Runemaster [+30]
- Dire Troll Brawler [16]
- Dire Troll Mauler [15]
- Troll Axer [10]
- Troll Bouncer [9]
- Troll Bouncer [9]
- Trollkin Runebearer [0(5)]
Fell Caller Hero [0(5)]
Krielstone Bearer & Stone Scribes (max) [9]
- Northkin Elder [3]
Northkin Bear Handle & Battle Bears [10]
Northkin Bear Handle & Battle Bears [10]
Northkin Fire Eaters [7]
Northkin Fire Eaters [7]
| conflictchamber.com/#c7201b_-0GfLjniU0hiXiXjq6G0li-iZiZezez
Trollbloods Army - 75 / 75 points
[Theme] Storm of the North
(Ragnor 1) Ragnor Skysplitter, The Runemaster [+30]
- Dire Troll Brawler [16]
- Rok [19]
- Troll Axer [10]
- Troll Basher [7]
- Troll Basher [7]
- Trollkin Runebearer [0(5)]
Fell Caller Hero [0(5)]
Krielstone Bearer & Stone Scribes (max) [9]
- Northkin Elder [3]
Northkin Bear Handle & Battle Bears [10]
Northkin Bear Handle & Battle Bears [10]
Northkin Fire Eaters [7]
Northkin Fire Eaters [7]
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It hurt dropping champions but I realized I hadn't tried the list without them. I've played both lists and they're both really solid but, as is always the case, they've got some different strengths and weaknesses. I found that the double bouncers are a bit more forgiving when going second, particularly against strong shooting, but the double bashers are very quick and threaten way above their weight class. I'm leaning towards double bouncers because I love what they bring but at this point its becoming a question of what I'm pairing the list with and just some basic preference.
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Arcaux
Junior Strategist
Posts: 724
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Post by Arcaux on Mar 15, 2018 10:33:21 GMT
I really dislike Double Fire eaters without a Pyre Troll though I accept there are other people who disagree with that.
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Post by robbleyourworld on Mar 15, 2018 13:26:03 GMT
I really dislike Double Fire eaters without a Pyre Troll though I accept there are other people who disagree with that. I get that, I've just been running fire eaters so long without a pyre I've gotten used to it. The pyre troll feels like a luxury to me where its great if I have him but not necessary and with points being tight I find myself avoiding luxuries.
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Post by zwergenkrieger on Mar 16, 2018 7:38:09 GMT
(Ragnor 1) Ragnor Skysplitter, The Runemaster [+30] - Dire Troll Brawler [16] - Rok [19] - Troll Axer [10] - Troll Basher [7] - Troll Basher [7] Krielstone Bearer & Stone Scribes (max) [9] - Northkin Elder [3] Been thinking about Ragnor and a similar battlegroup lately. I don´t think that a Axer is a good addition to Rök and/or Bashers simply due to the fact that you can´t have both animi on the same model. You either get Rush OR Primal, but not both. Therefore I question the need for an Axer. That being said, you could drop the Brawler and the Axer and get one additional Basher as well as a Bomber which I think does more for the list. Or you could go with a Mauler, a Bouncer and some Swamp Gobbers instead which also would make your list better IMO. The battlegroup I have in mind is: Rök 2 Bashers 2 Winter Trolls This battlegroup is even less expensive than yours but offers some nice synergies with the Northkin Elder. Though no damge buff for your beasts in melee. That´s what I really don´t like about Trolls right now: you have to decide wether you go for more speed, +2 damage on warrior models and +2 to cold damage (basically limited to ranged weapons) OR for +1 damage in melee on everything and some nice immunities as well as anti incorporeal. If you take the above mentioned battlegroup with a Krielstone Elder you get a P+S 19 Basher under Ragnor, which is pretty fine. Though the idea behind my thoughts is to get a new form of Meat Mountain. Trolls offer some respectable boxes/points ratios across the different models and the idea is (1) to get as much boxes as possible (2) to not neglect damage output (Primal heavily increases the damage output of your warbeasts) (3) to play the long grindy game (because I do not think that there is a chance to alpha most opponents out there). That´s why I think Ragnor is a good choice in SotN. He offers even more resillence, has a good toolbox and SotN offers access to Bearhandler & Bears as well as Long Riders which give you the best boxes/points ratio in all of Trollblood´s units: Long Riders are 2 boxes per point and Bears are 2.3 boxes per point (just as a comparison: Champions are roughly 1.6 boxes per point, are slower and offer less ARM). *Sidenote: Fire Eaters are 2.14 boxes per point, but at ARM 13 they are easily one shotted and therefore can´t contribute to Meat Mountain, though they offer excellent offense, mobility and dude spam removal. As a further comparison: Bashers are 3.14 boxes per point (best light, light warbeasts have a range of 2 boxes/point up to 3.14 boxes/point), Maulers are 2 boxes/point and Earthborns are roughly 2.3 boxes/point. Comparing all those values leads to the fact that you either run PoD OR SotN with Bears and Long Riders if you´re heading towards BOXSPAM. The comparison above does not take into account that there are different ARM values (though Long Riders and Bears eventually offer the best ARM values when it comes down to units) which might have an impact on this comparison. A downside of PoD IMO is the less effective board presence you can reach. SoTN with Bears and Long Riders offers much more maneuverability than PoD, is less reliant on Fury mechanic and offers possibility to spread out your forces. Well, that´s it for now. I have to think about which warlock is the best for such a Meat Mountain (Madrak1 seems a real contender due to the fact that high DEF + high ARM + massed boxes = one hell to remove; though I don´t like to ride on the mainstream). ZK *Sidenote: the other list concept I´m heading towards is massed dude spam based on Fennblades, Kriel Warriors and/or Northkin Raiders. Oh, and there is that "I like to go second"-concept including Bears, Raiders and Fire Eaters in SotN OR Raiders, Fire Eaters and Bushwhackers in KC. Sorry for that long post.
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Post by robbleyourworld on Mar 16, 2018 14:16:27 GMT
(Ragnor 1) Ragnor Skysplitter, The Runemaster [+30] - Dire Troll Brawler [16] - Rok [19] - Troll Axer [10] - Troll Basher [7] - Troll Basher [7] Krielstone Bearer & Stone Scribes (max) [9] - Northkin Elder [3] Been thinking about Ragnor and a similar battlegroup lately. I don´t think that a Axer is a good addition to Rök and/or Bashers simply due to the fact that you can´t have both animi on the same model. You either get Rush OR Primal, but not both. Therefore I question the need for an Axer. That being said, you could drop the Brawler and the Axer and get one additional Basher as well as a Bomber which I think does more for the list. Or you could go with a Mauler, a Bouncer and some Swamp Gobbers instead which also would make your list better IMO. The battlegroup I have in mind is: Rök 2 Bashers 2 Winter Trolls This battlegroup is even less expensive than yours but offers some nice synergies with the Northkin Elder. Though no damge buff for your beasts in melee. That´s what I really don´t like about Trolls right now: you have to decide wether you go for more speed, +2 damage on warrior models and +2 to cold damage (basically limited to ranged weapons) OR for +1 damage in melee on everything and some nice immunities as well as anti incorporeal. If you take the above mentioned battlegroup with a Krielstone Elder you get a P+S 19 Basher under Ragnor, which is pretty fine. I tend to fall into the camp of always bringing an axer if you can. Rush is an interesting animus from my experience because its real use is psychological as it forces your opponent to play around your increased hypothetical threat keeping your opponents playing substantially less aggressive and giving you more control on the pace of the game. With Ragnor that threat isn't as hypothetical since he isn't as reliant on the damage buff animi to make our beasts hit hard so they have to respect that if I want to my Brawler can threaten 13" with PS19's. Also pathfinder on your heavies is still really important since neither of the ones I've included in my battlegroup have guaranteed access to it without rush. I see reasons why you might want to bring a bomber but I'm having some trouble seeing a ton of use for the winter trolls. The way the list is built now it basically plays by hitting hard first with fire eaters and bears and positioning for follow up with beasts and hopefully feating your opponent then has to dislodge themselves from some very difficult to remove models only to be greeted by a pack of warbeasts that hit reliably and hard. The bomber I could fit into that build but sacrificing rush to get it doesn't feel great. The winter trolls are okay but they don't do enough even with pulverizer and primal to feel worth a second heavy. As for the stone elder that comes down to preference and I just prefer out threatening my opponent so I can determine the flow of the game.
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