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Post by maximumhippo on Feb 15, 2018 10:05:32 GMT
I love Spread the Net. Easily the most live scenario and lots of fun little plays that can make huge differences. The Pit II and breakdown(?) are IMO the worst scenarios as there is no 'outside' element and it's just a slog in the middle there's no scoring hardly ever and it just feels like there might as well not be a scenario on the table at all. I like your scenario mock-ups troll, but I like them as a replacement for something other than Spread the Net. I dislike all of these ideas. 1. Coven may be an issue but i'm pretty sure toeing two zones is not only intended but a desired strategy. generally to be able to do that your warcaster/warlock has to be fairly far forward and likely in the middle of things. 2. Why? Incubi are still solos, thrall warriors are still solos. I just am not sure what you're trying to achieve other than making uncommon models even less common. 3. I dislike this one least because it kind of makes sense but again, you're trying to punish someone for bringing strong tools. it's not you opponent's fault you can't deal with it. yes incorporeal models are annoying to deal with but it's been a thing for almost a year now, I think most players have adapted to it as best they can. Toeing two zones is one thing. Coven scoring 3 scenario elements (potentially) in a turn is quite another, as is Haley Echoes stalling the game and making it virtually impossible to score zones unless you are capable of repeatedly removing a Def 18 Incorporeal model. I personally have no issue killing gremlin swarms. I play Circle and Ret, and have an abundance of magic attacks with which to murder the buggers. I do NOT think it leads to a good game to have incorporeal models be not only a gear check on the attrition level, but also in terms of scenario. It's a particular problem for Khador, but other factions don't have easy access to magic weapons, or have access to them only in a select few places (or centered on one theme). Also, if we happen to be looking at ways to make Grymkin less obnoxious, having them not be able to hold every zone and flag with free Gremlin swarms would be a start. The models offer plenty of utility by body blocking, putting damage on constructs, and Serenity. As I said, Coven might be an issue. However, with the change to egregore in the latest dynamic update I believe that they are significantly less of an issue. If I may, Me thinks thou dost protest too much. You clearly have some issue with Gremlin swarms as I didn't even mention them (or grymkin as a whole) and yet your 2/3rds of your reply to me is saying how busted they are. To steal the line, 'Show me on the doll where the gremlin swarm touched you'. Yes it does suck sometimes to deal with Gremlin swarms or the Haley echoes or tough wraith engines or whatever. Is it the most efficient thing to spend 4 focus double boosting a razor wind into baby Haley? No, certainly not. But it's not a gear check when all but two, maybe three, warcasters in the game have access to a magical nuke. And the casters I can think of without nukes have extremely easy access to magical, stealth ignoring weapons. Options exist, and if you don't want to use them, that really isn't my problem. I think that forge seers marshalling destroyers are really good regardless, and the fact that they have blessed magical weapons is gravy. Gravy that happens to solve said incorporeal problem. If you or your local Khador players disagree, then fine that's your play. Refusing to adapt to the meta game is not a good reason to call for change. I personally have a lot of issues dealing with trolls. particularly since Storm of the North dropped. I'm not sitting on here whining and asking for them to be nerfed, I'm adapting my play and figuring out what models I need to have. |
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Post by oncomingstorm on Feb 15, 2018 10:21:11 GMT
Toeing two zones is one thing. Coven scoring 3 scenario elements (potentially) in a turn is quite another, as is Haley Echoes stalling the game and making it virtually impossible to score zones unless you are capable of repeatedly removing a Def 18 Incorporeal model. I personally have no issue killing gremlin swarms. I play Circle and Ret, and have an abundance of magic attacks with which to murder the buggers. I do NOT think it leads to a good game to have incorporeal models be not only a gear check on the attrition level, but also in terms of scenario. It's a particular problem for Khador, but other factions don't have easy access to magic weapons, or have access to them only in a select few places (or centered on one theme). Also, if we happen to be looking at ways to make Grymkin less obnoxious, having them not be able to hold every zone and flag with free Gremlin swarms would be a start. The models offer plenty of utility by body blocking, putting damage on constructs, and Serenity. As I said, Coven might be an issue. However, with the change to egregore in the latest dynamic update I believe that they are significantly less of an issue. If I may, Me thinks thou dost protest too much. You clearly have some issue with Gremlin swarms as I didn't even mention them (or grymkin as a whole) and yet your 2/3rds of your reply to me is saying how busted they are. To steal the line, 'Show me on the doll where the gremlin swarm touched you'. Yes it does suck sometimes to deal with Gremlin swarms or the Haley echoes or tough wraith engines or whatever. Is it the most efficient thing to spend 4 focus double boosting a razor wind into baby Haley? No, certainly not. But it's not a gear check when all but two, maybe three, warcasters in the game have access to a magical nuke. And the casters I can think of without nukes have extremely easy access to magical, stealth ignoring weapons. Options exist, and if you don't want to use them, that really isn't my problem. I think that forge seers marshalling destroyers are really good regardless, and the fact that they have blessed magical weapons is gravy. Gravy that happens to solve said incorporeal problem. If you or your local Khador players disagree, then fine that's your play. Refusing to adapt to the meta game is not a good reason to call for change. I personally have a lot of issues dealing with trolls. particularly since Storm of the North dropped. I'm not sitting on here whining and asking for them to be nerfed, I'm adapting my play and figuring out what models I need to have. Firetruck right off with the condescension. I'm perfectly capable of critiquing what I see as a source of imbalance with the gamestate, without it being tied to my failings as a player. I think I've lost...one? game to Grymkin, period, and they're one of my more frequent opponents (I have far more trouble into Khador and Cryx). Doesn't mean that I can't look at cheap models that are capable of stalling scenario, at little or no cost, and think they might just not be the best idea in a scenario-driven environment. |
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Post by Azuresun on Feb 15, 2018 10:51:49 GMT
Incorporeal silliness is the only real weakness I can think of for SR18--they're a gear check that not every faction can answer evenly, and if you didn't bring the required tools, forget about scenario. Maybe make them like warcasters--they can score, but not contest. And the casters I can think of without nukes have extremely easy access to magical, stealth ignoring weapons. ....seriously? |
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Cyel
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685 
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Post by Cyel on Feb 15, 2018 11:55:15 GMT
I like how Spread the Net is wide but I found it a little to easy to win/lose due to some gimmick ability or general army composition (fast army with a defensive feat moving first, for example).
Maybe just one rectangular zone on one side and two flags on the other of the circle ?
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Feb 15, 2018 13:17:51 GMT
But I just started to remember half the current scenarios D:
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SR18 CID?
Feb 15, 2018 13:40:52 GMT
via mobile
Post by maximumhippo on Feb 15, 2018 13:40:52 GMT
As I said, Coven might be an issue. However, with the change to egregore in the latest dynamic update I believe that they are significantly less of an issue. If I may, Me thinks thou dost protest too much. You clearly have some issue with Gremlin swarms as I didn't even mention them (or grymkin as a whole) and yet your 2/3rds of your reply to me is saying how busted they are. To steal the line, 'Show me on the doll where the gremlin swarm touched you'. Yes it does suck sometimes to deal with Gremlin swarms or the Haley echoes or tough wraith engines or whatever. Is it the most efficient thing to spend 4 focus double boosting a razor wind into baby Haley? No, certainly not. But it's not a gear check when all but two, maybe three, warcasters in the game have access to a magical nuke. And the casters I can think of without nukes have extremely easy access to magical, stealth ignoring weapons. Options exist, and if you don't want to use them, that really isn't my problem. I think that forge seers marshalling destroyers are really good regardless, and the fact that they have blessed magical weapons is gravy. Gravy that happens to solve said incorporeal problem. If you or your local Khador players disagree, then fine that's your play. Refusing to adapt to the meta game is not a good reason to call for change. I personally have a lot of issues dealing with trolls. particularly since Storm of the North dropped. I'm not sitting on here whining and asking for them to be nerfed, I'm adapting my play and figuring out what models I need to have. Firetruck right off with the condescension. I'm perfectly capable of critiquing what I see as a source of imbalance with the gamestate, without it being tied to my failings as a player. I think I've lost...one? game to Grymkin, period, and they're one of my more frequent opponents (I have far more trouble into Khador and Cryx). Doesn't mean that I can't look at cheap models that are capable of stalling scenario, at little or no cost, and think they might just not be the best idea in a scenario-driven environment. I'm sorry. That said, I still disagree on the gremlins. They're cheap, for sure and difficult to deal with by some factions. There are ways around that. Here's the thing, I'm not terribly good. Often I will look at the game and say to myself 'well, scenario is out, how can I assassinate'. Many many times, it's a 1-2% chance but it's my only real option so I go for it. That's one way around the scenario game. I realize that scenario is important to the game, but it is not and has never been the only win condition. If you're winning in every possible metric, except the damn gremlins keep getting in the way, is it that hard to go around them? |
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Post by maximumhippo on Feb 15, 2018 13:44:49 GMT
Incorporeal silliness is the only real weakness I can think of for SR18--they're a gear check that not every faction can answer evenly, and if you didn't bring the required tools, forget about scenario. Maybe make them like warcasters--they can score, but not contest. And the casters I can think of without nukes have extremely easy access to magical, stealth ignoring weapons. ....seriously? Seriously. Issyria, Lylyth2 and Rhyas1 are the casters I can think of off the top of my head without nukes. Lylyth is her own magic Eyeless gun. Naga is a crutch for legion players, so that solves Rhyas. Issyria lives in a faction where 90%+ guns are magic and her feat is true sight. If I missed something, I'm happy to be corrected. |
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Arcaux
Junior Strategist
Posts: 724
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Post by Arcaux on Feb 15, 2018 13:45:29 GMT
Firetruck right off with the condescension. I'm perfectly capable of critiquing what I see as a source of imbalance with the gamestate, without it being tied to my failings as a player. I think I've lost...one? game to Grymkin, period, and they're one of my more frequent opponents (I have far more trouble into Khador and Cryx). Doesn't mean that I can't look at cheap models that are capable of stalling scenario, at little or no cost, and think they might just not be the best idea in a scenario-driven environment. I'm sorry. That said, I still disagree on the gremlins. They're cheap, for sure and difficult to deal with by some factions. There are ways around that. Here's the thing, I'm not terribly good. Often I will look at the game and say to myself 'well, scenario is out, how can I assassinate'. Many many times, it's a 1-2% chance but it's my only real option so I go for it. That's one way around the scenario game. I realize that scenario is important to the game, but it is not and has never been the only win condition. If you're winning in every possible metric, except the damn gremlins keep getting in the way, is it that hard to go around them? I have to agree that Gremlin Swarms are potentially an issue.
The most telling comment is that I heard a Grymkin player remark that players where starting to adapt and they no longer won 10-25% of their games by default, because their opponents couldn't deal with them. That should never be the case.
I really like the idea of incorporeal models not contesting or claiming zones as it fixes the Haley3 issue as well.
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bward
Junior Strategist
Posts: 184
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Post by bward on Feb 15, 2018 14:10:02 GMT
If incorporeal is an issue... and I’m not totally convinced it is, the suggestion I like the most is that they cannot contest but can still score.
If you prevent them from scoring, then casters like Denny2 and Dreamer will have a bad time.
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Xintas
Junior Strategist
Posts: 824
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Post by Xintas on Feb 15, 2018 14:53:01 GMT
So the idea is that they score the zone unless anything of the opponent's force is there, in which case the opponent scores (if the model(s) is eligible) or no one scores (if the model(s) is ineligible)? It seems a bit gamey but the more I think about it, the more I like it.
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crimsyn
Junior Strategist
Posts: 389
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SR18 CID?
Feb 15, 2018 15:06:42 GMT
via mobile
Post by crimsyn on Feb 15, 2018 15:06:42 GMT
I think in the next steamroller packet, PP should consider making basic painting requirements the default and have no painting requirements be an alternate rule, in order to emphasize the hobby aspect a little more and encourage more fully painted armies on the table.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Feb 15, 2018 15:09:19 GMT
I think in the next steamroller packet, PP should consider making basic painting requirements the default and have no painting requirements be an alternate rule, in order to emphasize the hobby aspect a little more and encourage more fully painted armies on the table. While I would love everyone to play painted, I can't see them making it the default for Steamroller. Steamroller is meant to be the most new player friendly, hence the option to only bring one list. |
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bward
Junior Strategist
Posts: 184
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SR18 CID?
Feb 15, 2018 15:11:34 GMT
via mobile
Post by bward on Feb 15, 2018 15:11:34 GMT
I think in the next steamroller packet, PP should consider making basic painting requirements the default and have no painting requirements be an alternate rule, in order to emphasize the hobby aspect a little more and encourage more fully painted armies on the table. This is a whole different can of worms... but why bake in the hobby-side (a completely different aspect of the game) into the competitive side? There’s no relation. Let alone the fact that some people don’t care for painting and that shouldn’t prevent them from enjoying part of the game they do enjoy. |
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Post by Gamingdevil on Feb 15, 2018 15:11:57 GMT
I think in the next steamroller packet, PP should consider making basic painting requirements the default and have no painting requirements be an alternate rule, in order to emphasize the hobby aspect a little more and encourage more fully painted armies on the table. Even if they did, nobody would enforce it. If you want to have a good event with lots of people, you can't afford to refuse something just because they have an unpainted model. |
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crimsyn
Junior Strategist
Posts: 389
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SR18 CID?
Feb 15, 2018 15:24:43 GMT
via mobile
Post by crimsyn on Feb 15, 2018 15:24:43 GMT
I think in the next steamroller packet, PP should consider making basic painting requirements the default and have no painting requirements be an alternate rule, in order to emphasize the hobby aspect a little more and encourage more fully painted armies on the table. This is a whole different can of worms... but why bake in the hobby-side (a completely different aspect of the game) into the competitive side? There’s no relation. Let alone the fact that some people don’t care for painting and that shouldn’t prevent them from enjoying part of the game they do enjoy. Painted armies make the game more interesting to watch and enhance the experience for all, and players should be encouraged to show off all aspects of the hobby. |
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