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Post by Blargaliscious on Apr 4, 2017 6:50:30 GMT
I agree that dudespam is not a problem at the moment, but it might become more interesting for more AOE when the new Steamroller gets... rolled out. (See what I did there?) Maybe we should take a look at not only going combined arms with jacks and infantry, but it might be worthwhile to vary the jacks in the battlegroup as well. I know that RAT 4 is a stinker, but the Decimator with the Dozer cannon is interesting with 2 (3 with Broadside) RNG:10 POW:15 beatback shots. Instead of spamming Destroyers because they are cheap (and why are they now cheap?) it might be a good idea to have one of these guys in the mix to knock enemy warjacks off of an objective to clear a lane. The Demolisher deserves a second look also with 2 (3 with Broadside) RNG:8 POW:15 AOE:3 shots and a whole host of other interesting rules: Bulldoze, Girded, Steady, and Sturdy. After looking at all of the rules this dumb thing has, this jack might simply be *the* Robotech-esque warjack for Harkevich to have in scenario play. Iamgine this: a couple Demolishers get Mobility ran up into an infantry objective. Nothing stops them because of Bulldoze, Steady, and Sturdy. Once they get a lot of infantry bunched up against them they open up and with Broadside just unleash a hail (one might even say... a broadside) of AOE:3 death upon the infantry. It'd be like a steam-powered Daedalus Maneuver. Anyway, it might be worth looking deeper into the catalogue of our warjacks and start developing a more diverse set of tactics to use with Harkevich aside from just "Get'em!" |
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Post by Netherby on Apr 4, 2017 7:45:26 GMT
The issue with the Decimator and Demolisher are their cost right now. They should both be 14 points.
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Post by Soul Samurai on Apr 4, 2017 7:53:14 GMT
Decimator with the Dozer cannon is interesting with 2 (3 with Broadside) RNG:10 POW:15 beatback shots. Instead of spamming Destroyers because they are cheap (and why are they now cheap?) it might be a good idea to have one of these guys in the mix to knock enemy warjacks off of an objective to clear a lane. FYI I'm pretty sure Beat-Back does not trigger for attacks that aren't part of the jack's combat action. |
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Post by Mr.Human on Apr 4, 2017 14:18:13 GMT
This is so true. I´ve found that I rearly cast mobility, just too expensive and Rat4, well...
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Apr 4, 2017 14:21:12 GMT
conflictchamber.com/#b31b_-0x8D7o8Ff8hFhF878H8z8B8G8cKhador Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Jaws of the Wolf !!! Your army contains pre-release entries. !!! You are using a pre-release theme. (Harkevich 1) Kommander Harkevich, The Iron Wolf [+28] - Decimator [16] - Demolisher [16] - Victor [38] Greylord Forge Seer [0] Greylord Forge Seer [0] Battle Mechaniks (max) [5] - Battle Mechanik Officer [3] Kayazy Assassins (min) [9] - Kayazy Assassin Underboss [4] Kayazy Eliminators [5] Kossite Woodsmen (min) [7] Im trying to use it with Victor. Idea being to use him as a RAT Fixer and Stealth Remover. Kossites I use to occupy whatever areas of cover are on the field to Deny them to Enemies and the Kyazys either eliminate Vital Targets or Assasinate Units or do damage. The idea is to do serious damage from a Ranged and with Units before finishing it with Warjack Melee.
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wendan
Junior Strategist
Posts: 785 
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Post by wendan on Apr 4, 2017 20:05:20 GMT
I think it depends what you're facing. Against Khador or menoth jacks, or Skorne beasts? Broadside is much more worth it since you don't need to boost to hit. Same as convergence vectors. Against High def stuff you'll likely not want to cast it as you will likely not hit anyways!
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Post by The Snark Knight on Apr 4, 2017 20:09:38 GMT
When I look at Harkevich I don't see a "jack caster." I see a combined arms caster that uses our ranged warjacks to maximum effect to support the infantry. Some people say that Broadside is a trap. (Thank you Admiral Ackbar.) I think that Mobility is a trap - it makes you want to take a lot of warjacks when that may not be the best idea. I will grant that I haven't played Harkevich much and I've never played him with more infantry than Mechaniks. I might try him with WGI, maybe a mortar crew or two. But if I'd figured he was supposed to be combined arms, the only reason I'd take him over any other caster in our stable is because I like that he has a beard. |
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Post by The Snark Knight on Apr 4, 2017 20:50:12 GMT
Now that I'm thinking about it I also kinda want to buy Eliminators or Widowmakers and try those as well.
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Post by Cryptix on Apr 4, 2017 21:23:36 GMT
So, what I'm hearing is its less of Hark being broken, and more of the game being broken with cheap heavies.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Apr 4, 2017 21:44:55 GMT
Hmmm...I think I do allow public perception to influence my opinion of Harkevitch.....Im also a guy with low self esteem.
What he wants is to Deny Enemies Access to Cover and Concealment and Stealth. Hes a mixed caster, but a Primarily Warjack one. Hes 75% Jack, 25% Infantry.
But not SPAMMINg Jacks. He excels at Jack Based Attrition. The Main Trick is to have the enemy engage you on your own terms. This often can mean using his feat defensively. He is decisively fine against Infantry Or even MIXED armies, but I actually have had success Against even Jack Heavy Armies. Even against the COC.
But hes the most Terrain Dependant caster of all Id say. With allot of Terrain he can really harass his enemies, but with small chunklets he suffers. Hes actually best at the end of the game then at the beginning. At the beginning your not doing so much, but at the end, your opponent enters this "Oh" Stage, where they realise they can't win.
He Critically needs mechanics, and benefits the most from healing damaged jacks as opposed to spamming them till they die.
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Post by Netherby on Apr 4, 2017 22:39:15 GMT
So, what I'm hearing is its less of Hark being broken, and more of the game being broken with cheap heavies. You must be listening to a different station? Because there is no Hark or game being broken. Just Hark not delivering on his thematic role of running a ranged battle group. There are two reasons that's the case. One being that low RAT makes Khador ranged jacks very unappealing and the second being that they pay a ranged tax. So our ranged jacks all cost more than dedicated melee jacks but are not nearly as good in melee. Because of their poor RAT they do not make up for this lack with their shooting. So either their shooting has to get better or their cost needs to come down. |
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Post by Blargaliscious on Apr 4, 2017 23:49:45 GMT
So, what I'm hearing is its less of Hark being broken, and more of the game being broken with cheap heavies. I'm not sure how you got that from this conversation, I'd love to hear more about how you got to that conclusion.
I think a lot of it revolves around RAT4 on Khador warjacks -vs- Steamroller. If a Khador warjack shoots an opposing heavy warjack the odds of an unassisted hit are about 50% and drop as the targets get more nimble. In the very competitive SR environment that success rate is below the probability most people seem to be willing to tolerate.
You then look at the spell list for Harkevich and see that he has 3 moderate warjack support spells: Broadside, Jumpstart, and Mobility. The reasonable conclusion is that "Harkevich is a 'jack caster!" Proceeding down this route you are either looking at melee or ranged warjacks.
Our melee warjacks are very good, but if you load up Harkevich with melee warjacks you have just rendered one of his spells (Broadside) useless and you don't get the full effect of his feat. At this point you look at Butcher1 or Karchev and wonder if Harkevich is really worth taking over either of them.
If you go down the route of loading up with ranged warjacks you run into the accuracy issue. Spending the 3 focus for Broadside then becomes dependent upon the opposing force composition -vs- the guns on your warjacks. If you want any accuracy you are going to stand still for the +2 and then get 3" Reposition, or spend focus, and your results may still not be the best.
So at this point in our discussion things don't look absolutely fabulous for the bearded one. That's why I challenge the underlying assumption about him being a jack caster. Maybe he should be played like a combined arms caster that tries to pull the most out of our more unusual and underused warjacks - The 3x De's: Decimator, Demolisher, and Devastator. This line of reasoning might make more sense once the SR2017 comes out if the rumored changes happen.
Until SR2017? Apply moar colossalz!
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Post by Cryptix on Apr 5, 2017 1:25:39 GMT
Still won't make Broadside worth casting. You would rather have the +2 Rat and reroll on the active turn. Yeah that's true. It won't help the Broadsides shots. That's unfortunate. It would still help the initial shots though so still should be somewhat useful. The problem I see is that if you play Harkevich with AOE spam you're solving a problem that really isn't a problem in MKIII...dudespam. I do think that theme lists will help bring more dudes to the table but not like what we saw in MKII. At one point Hark with double Victors looked appealing to me. Now not so much. Thing is if we want to deal with Dudespam, we don't really have a problem with it. And limiting yourself to fighing dudespam is a lost cause really. Maybe after SR2017 comes out there will be more infantry hitting the table, and Broadsides will be more interesting since a scatter will have more of a chance of clearing some infantry.  . When I mean broken, I meant "not working as intended, which seems to be the point of this thread... |
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studderingdave
Junior Strategist
May the Gods have mercy on your soul.
Posts: 114
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Post by studderingdave on Apr 5, 2017 2:05:25 GMT
Trap spells exist. Armor feat, battlegroup speed buff and field marshal reposition is good enough. You can play into broadside and get cute but I wouldn't chase that dragon.
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Post by Netherby on Apr 5, 2017 5:23:32 GMT
When I mean broken, I meant "not working as intended, which seems to be the point of this thread... I would say it IS working as intended. The amount of infantry hate that was shared around in Mk3 made it pretty clear PP want less doods and more jacks. |
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