Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on Apr 26, 2018 19:47:47 GMT
Mac, you're ignoring a few critically important salient points.
Cryx, Cygnar, and Khador players will OF COURSE be ok with many of the buffs: they're either still ahead or now getting fair games against the top tier stuff. Most other factions aren't quite as lucky.
WRT point 6 immunity thing....2 entire factions are harmed extremely heavily by an opposing army that is not only immune to most or all their shooting en masse, but doesn't even pay an apparent opportunity cost for this bonus. The Dev failure is for not addressing those concerns in the slightest, rather than any issues from the immunities testing.
As for netlisting and hyper competitive play...That still happens in WMH, all the time. It's just that you don't always need the internet to come up with the solutions because the lists are less finely grained. While certain players will make minor changes based on preference, the core models, abilities, and questions of many of the most oppressive lists will show up on any table that list does.
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Hashmal
Junior Strategist
Posts: 557
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Post by Hashmal on Apr 26, 2018 19:59:52 GMT
Oh, the days of the Farseer Council/Warlock Jetbike Deathstars. But I can't point fingers. I used to run Fatecrusher right before I got into Warmachine at the advent of Mk. II. Think I've always enjoyed frustrating my opponents. Probably explains my choice of faction. Anyways, super stoked for the CID. I have a huge project that wraps on that day and a certain Cygnar friend of mine has already volunteered to help me run a CID game or two that afternoon. After the last few weeks, well I can't tell you how much I'm looking forward to that! I'm stoked too but I doubt I can participate. Its the end of the semester and all the work is piling up I feel that so hard. M'lady's finishing her last class before graduation and the amount of back-loaded stuff she has to do is *stupid*.
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Post by paradox on Apr 26, 2018 20:08:23 GMT
paradoxOh boy here we go 1: Ambush bears are tough, maybe a tad undercoated...but Oppressive, Un-bearable (heh) nah. I played against them a bit, they are obnoxious for sure but there is so much worse. Be busted in any other faction probably. HHH good does not equal Over the top 2:He is actually very reasonable. I played against him a-lot when gaston was into him, He is slow and bricks up too much for SR17 really balances the fact that he is basically a heavy. 3: Boarding party are absurdly cheap. But cryx players insisted it was "fair and balanced" I never really tested them too much so I kept silent. Smog belchers are good, But got toned down a lot. 4: I agree, could have been worse, but we have different views on the bar set for cav units. I think chosen move it up from where It should be, but others disagree, it is what it is now. 5: Yeah lots of stupidity about the Juggy and marauder, and you know what? The devs ignored them! Juggy at 13..fine! Marauder still to cheap? yeah, but now we will actually see kahdor diversity instead of a million marauders... *note: Notice a trend though, Cryx, Cygnar, and Khador players seem to be ok with dumb stuff in these cycles. Not everyone, but there are some..interesting people in those cycles. 6: I don't think you are acknowledging the issues here This CiD had some absurd start off rules....Dev failure IMO. Sure the immunity changes were weird but way too much of a shift for that cycle anyway. Had they created an entire 2 week cycle for immunity I think the community reaction would have been less...panicked. 7: *DEEP BREATH* I wont rant about Games workshop at the competitive level...but I will say its trash. My exposure to it has been very very nagtive though. The community killed 40K for me. Lots of Net Listing, OP combos, WAAC attitudes, etc. Just..not fun. I also just find the games to be super boring unless you create a narrative. My experience in the warmachine community has been much better. But maybe I just had a bad 40K exposure. I will never forget the time I played an eldar player, with a Bunch of warlock deathstars psychic screamed my tyranid army off the table (In a narrative league btw) and then said at the end of what I thought was a close game "this isn't even my good list" Yeah, I am jaded a bit. But I do have a lot of experiences with players like that in 40K where i can count on one hand the experiences like that in warmachine. 1. We look at double Ambush bears VERY differently I guess. Getting forced into the less than 20" midboard is my definition of "oppressive." Then you have to deal with them, further sucking resources, while Trolls exploit the front. I see plenty of this. 2. ill grant I have not seen tons of Barny2. But everything Ive seen has been all him winning bullying FAR up the field exploiting EoBN, Swarm, and Star Crossed. Hes definitely aggressively good, and damned near impossible to kill. 3. Cryx, and especially Ogrun, I see alot. BOBP are brokenly good. Especially with Skarre3. Enjoy that Reinforcements! Belchers build cloudwalls to shut down shooting, turn off charges, and all as side effects while dealing damage. They took the smallest of nerfs in CID. Iron mongers are the most durable me hanics, and randomly improve BG accruracy on already accurate jacks any Cryx ogrun came through way good. 5. You just proved my point. 6. I think youre misunderstanding how devs view CID or why they float various rules versions. 7. Maybe your scene is different. Last month a random 40K tourny had 46 players show up. Just a rando LGS event. Last time local WMH saw that was 2006. So 12 years. I might see 2-4 WMH guys on an average night. 40K has probably 3x that, over several nights, all with new faces. Shadespire is everywhere. Since 8th dropped, GW is everywhere, and people love it. Meanwhile, Ive seen no new WMH blood in that time, but players drop out, there are barely any events, none with more than the same 5-10 guys, and spectators and former players are totally turned off by the comp scene. Hell, Ive mildly pushed Dark Age and Wrath of Kings, and can get close to WMH numbers for either game. Meanwhile, I tend to see mainly the same 5 guys in WMH anymore, any given day. Looks bad for PP. GW sells plenty though.
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Hashmal
Junior Strategist
Posts: 557
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Post by Hashmal on Apr 26, 2018 20:13:58 GMT
Don't know that I've ever seen those numbers change for GW though, dox. I know in my area the WM/H scene is really flourishing, as several community members have banded together and built several cross-regional tournament formats. We had a regional one in Bethlehem, PA a month or two back sell out at 50. For Brawltimore, it wasn't uncommon to see well over 20 players arrive. From NJ down through VA, there's a ton of participation and interest. Our problem's usually that we have too many tournaments to realistically attend!
I think new player recruitment needs to pick up, though, and this is an area that PP is currently weak on. Journeymen leagues just aren't enough. I see their current First Shot format as a half-hearted attempt to get new blood in.
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Post by macdaddy on Apr 26, 2018 20:32:12 GMT
paradox 1: doesn't that happen with most ambushing units? You saty 13 or so inches away from a table edge, they come on, you kill them, and woolah, problem solved...Im not saying its easy (arm 19 unyielding tough *puke*) But its very manageable. 2: Gaston is a fairly strong player, I have found He typically needs 2 heavies to reliably put him down if he is camping 1 or 2. I am not saying he is trash, but he is not oppressive either. I like how Tanky he is, because I like active bully casters. So I guess I am biased 3:Ill be honest, other than skarre3 I didn't test anything other than mechanics much. I just assumed I was over-reacting but if you have game experience I am concerned now. 5: DAMN YOU YOU BASTARD YOU GOT ME TO AGREE WITH YOU! 6: I guess. I think we can make assumptions, but based on crucible guard and past interactions I wonder if they actually do think some of those models are "fine" Look at how they acted about Caine0 before reports showed how dumb snipe got. "We tested and it was fine" I am unsure we can determine accurately which times are red herrings and which times are not. I am sure certain things, like smog belchers incarnation 1, are obviously bait (not the word i am looking for but cannot come up with a better one). But skarre3 took a lot of reporting and convincing to get toned down and even then was only mildly adjusted. Maybe its because Soles is the Head dev and has a hard on for crxy but It just seemed off to me...damn it I am agreeing with you again..stop it! 7: Oh yeah 40K has a huge following my point is not that I think its unsuccessful. I could get games 4-+ nights a week if I were to man up and play the orks at the shop. I was trying to say, my expereince with the 40K community has been...horrible. Honestly terrible. Some players are great, but overall lots of bad attitudes, rage, and judgement. No fun to play games. Something about GW games IME makes the community volatile. Its why I stopped playing blizzard games competitive. I dropped out of star craft leagues and such because people were just ass-hats. Counted even enjoy the games anymore, and I loved star craft and heroes of the storm. I loved tyranids in 40K but the community just killed it for me. I know this is all subjective, but I can only really go off what I see and experience.
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Post by paradox on Apr 26, 2018 23:40:43 GMT
1: doesn't that happen with most ambushing units? You saty 13 or so inches away from a table edge, they come on, you kill them, and woolah, problem solved...Im not saying its easy (arm 19 unyielding tough *puke*) But its very manageable. Staying 13"ish from both edges definitely hurts as you take the rest of the Troll brick to face, and then the bears deploy 3" and run 14" to engage the turn the brick hits you. It's hardly as easy as just kill bears. And no, the bears are not like any other ambushing unit. Feora1 cooks most of those off, after blocking her favored flank with WoF. Bears give no shots about WoF and charge right through it. But your comments make me feel you actually have not really had teh pleasure. Played vs my buddy's BOBP since MKI. They've been stupidly cheap the whole time, and good. Played vs them in CID a fair bit, plus all the new black ogrun cause he loves em. They are stupidly good. And having played non-PP games a fair bit with ex or non-PP gamers, I can tell you their outside view of WMH is god-awful. WMH carries a very strong WAAC reputation, and is doubly cursed to also have a reputation for ugly, uninspiring 2D terrain, piles of tokens, unpainted minis or even blank bases, etc. It ain't pretty. At least locally, its not really bringing in new blood. Almost no one is running events, and those who do are getting the same turnout with little or no make-up for attrition. But most or all those 46 40K guys love the new edition and love playing events.
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Post by macdaddy on Apr 27, 2018 0:32:28 GMT
paradox 1: oh I have a very large number of games into bears. They are a pain to deal with but both circle and protectorate handle them with smart positioning and jamming. I really don’t think they are as bad as you think they are. I have like 10 or so games into them with multiple casters and lists. As far as 40K different metas I guess. I see a lot of painted for warmachine here. Everyone has their own perspective ya know?
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Hashmal
Junior Strategist
Posts: 557
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Post by Hashmal on Apr 27, 2018 0:39:10 GMT
I will say that I do miss dynamic terrain in Warmachine, but the tradeoff was burning a lot of tournament time fiddling with model positions on hills. I never could get those right.
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Post by Cryptix on Apr 27, 2018 3:56:21 GMT
40k doesn't belong here, as interesting as the conversation is.
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Post by W0lfBane on Apr 27, 2018 4:02:08 GMT
I was wondering when that would happen. Anyways everybody obviously knows dropzone is the most superior game.
Now that that is all squared away. What you guys think the church is gonna do. Besides make a really good terrain piece
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Post by mydnight on Apr 27, 2018 4:26:05 GMT
I was wondering when that would happen. Anyways everybody obviously knows dropzone is the most superior game. Now that that is all squared away. What you guys think the church is gonna do. Besides make a really good terrain piece If they weren't trying too hard, then it be like the trencher one -- bring back some exemplar models every turn. And probably some support spells like the Vessel.
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Miafan
Junior Strategist
Eater of Brains
Posts: 130
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Post by Miafan on Apr 27, 2018 4:53:30 GMT
Now that that is all squared away. What you guys think the church is gonna do. Besides make a really good terrain piece I suspect it's gonna be a Covenant wannabe - maybe with better coverage area, but stationary.
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Hashmal
Junior Strategist
Posts: 557
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Post by Hashmal on Apr 27, 2018 6:19:51 GMT
I legit have no idea. It's something I didn't really want so hadn't thought about. It makes a lot less sense for Exemplars, who are short range skirmishers and melee units, than it does for Trenchers, who have a bunch of long range guns to take advantage of it's lack of deployment range.
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Post by zanragul on Apr 27, 2018 6:44:46 GMT
I really hope it has some protective aura to help deliver our exemplars against gunlines.
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Miafan
Junior Strategist
Eater of Brains
Posts: 130
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Post by Miafan on Apr 27, 2018 7:03:53 GMT
I've been thinking... I currently have:
Painted: Errants+UA Gravus Bastions unit Kreoss 1 and 2 2 KES EBS
Unpainted: EES Knights exemplar unit Kreoss 3 Vengers unit
Wonder if this CID is going to make me a legit exemplar army without spammachine. I am not opposed to an idea of buying a second unit of KE and/or Cinerators with UA.
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