Akeley
Baby's First Wargame
Posts: 4
|
Post by Akeley on Dec 2, 2017 22:03:20 GMT
Gunny also got big bumps from the buffs to the mountain king and bomber (like Trollock said). Picking up field Marshall kill shot didn't hurt either!
|
|
|
Post by greenjello on Dec 2, 2017 23:48:26 GMT
Cynical thoughts: Consider that now there is design space for the now released Northkin Elder's +2 cold damage aura (alternative KSB attachments were bandied about in TB forums throughout MK2). There is TB design space for a light warbeast again to provide a damage buff to our other warbeasts, or combat solos (solos usually only taken as 'free' options in Theme). Seems like they could have addressed that by just making the Slag/Pyre animus beast only, or the +2 cold damage warrior models only. Trollock I agree the new Madrak1 is strong, I just liked the old one. I'm not objecting to the power level, I'm just surprised that they felt any need to change him. Reports that his feat was essentially broken on Madrak2 aren't encouraging. Also Kriels have always been cheap points wise. I can't help but wonder if they didn't get nerfed after their cost was cut in half by a plastic release. I always wanted to play caber spam, guess I never will..... Maybe it's just me, but I never had a problem with Gunny's old feat. Since everybody knew he was hot garbage in MK II, none of my opponents knew how to deal with him.....
|
|
|
Post by grabsnikk on Dec 3, 2017 2:24:52 GMT
Cynical thoughts: Consider that now there is design space for the now released Northkin Elder's +2 cold damage aura (alternative KSB attachments were bandied about in TB forums throughout MK2). There is TB design space for a light warbeast again to provide a damage buff to our other warbeasts, or combat solos (solos usually only taken as 'free' options in Theme). Seems like they could have addressed that by just making the Slag/Pyre animus beast only, or the +2 cold damage warrior models only. Trollock I agree the new Madrak1 is strong, I just liked the old one. I'm not objecting to the power level, I'm just surprised that they felt any need to change him. Reports that his feat was essentially broken on Madrak2 aren't encouraging. Also Kriels have always been cheap points wise. I can't help but wonder if they didn't get nerfed after their cost was cut in half by a plastic release. I always wanted to play caber spam, guess I never will..... Maybe it's just me, but I never had a problem with Gunny's old feat. Since everybody knew he was hot garbage in MK II, none of my opponents knew how to deal with him..... Making practically every light warbeasts animus RNG Self means that they hardly ever see the table as they just don't do enough work themselves to justify their inclusion in lists outside of a Pyre for lighting up Fire Eaters. Its very sad that Kriels got shafted, it was an actual decision on whether to take them or Fennblades in Mk2, now they never really see the table as Fenns are so much better. Still, at least they are playable unlike the Burrowers who got nerfed practically every way possible and are now unplayable outside of Grim2.
|
|
|
Post by greenjello on Dec 3, 2017 2:50:50 GMT
Making practically every light warbeasts animus RNG Self means that they hardly ever see the table as they just don't do enough work themselves to justify their inclusion in lists outside of a Pyre for lighting up Fire Eaters. I think you've hit the nail on the head. I looked through the other factions beasts, and it appears that virtually every light beast animus is SELF. There are a few outliers, like Primal on the Gorax, but the default is SELF. It appears that the change was partially motivated by the desire to balance beasts vs jacks a bit better. Its very sad that Kriels got shafted, it was an actual decision on whether to take them or Fennblades in Mk2, now they never really see the table as Fenns are so much better. Still, at least they are playable unlike the Burrowers who got nerfed practically every way possible and are now unplayable outside of Grim2. I don't think the Kriels are dreadful. Fenns still have amazing range, and better offensively, and Kriels are still cheaper, and can spread out, due to the piper. The change to add Unyielding really pushes the Kriels into the cheap tarpit role. I just liked their prayers a bit better, since it gave them some flexibility, and made them less one note. What really twerks me off is the caber going back to single use. (They were single use in MKI) I don't understand what problem is being fixed. It's a more complex rules interaction, more record keeping, and I've never heard anybody claim the caber's are op. So why? Are they trying to make the game more "realistic"?
|
|
|
Post by Trollock on Dec 3, 2017 20:42:56 GMT
The rumors of the death of the light beast is greatly exaggerated...
They are not what they used to be, but they have a place, especially in PoD, but i have played lists in both BoH and SotN with 3 lights as the battle group, and they have worked fine. They have A place, but it is not everywhere.
|
|
|
Post by greenjello on Dec 4, 2017 1:43:43 GMT
The rumors of the death of the light beast is greatly exaggerated... They are not what they used to be, but they have a place, especially in PoD, but i have played lists in both BoH and SotN with 3 lights as the battle group, and they have worked fine. They have A place, but it is not everywhere. I agree with Trollock. I've been fielding battle groups with light and heavy warbeasts, and generally I find the light warbeasts do decently well in a roll similar to what I've used Cygnar light jacks. That is to say some utility (Swamp Troll, Bouncer, Impaler), light combat duty (Bouncer, Impaler, Axer) or jank (Night Troll). None of them is going to one round a colossal, but they all generate fury, do do decently against infantry, can go solo hunting, and sometimes have useful animi. Compared to light warjacks, they tend to be a point or two cheaper, while bring their own 3 fury that doesn't require caster allocation. A cheap light jack for most factions is 8-9 points. We have two 7 point beasts, 3 8 point beasts. Further we have the stone, which is the best ARM buff in the game, which makes cheap beef a much better deal for use than other factions. Sure there are outliers, like the PoM Devish, or Cryx bone jacks, but they're always been pretty cheap. In mkII none of our warbeasts came close to bone jack cheap. We've also got Serenity in the PoD theme, and free whelps, which gives Trolls decent fury management on a scale that didn't exist before.
|
|
|
Post by droopingpuppy on Dec 4, 2017 3:39:48 GMT
Although I am a Cygnar gamer, but I am also familiar with Trollbloods(I have borrowed models from my Trollbloods friend sometimes and also against him many times) so I can speak for something.... 1) Far Strike is now SELF only. So for a long time Troll beasts and units had their range cut down severly, and usually the rationale was thought to be Far Strike. (Since we have only 1 warlock with Snipe). Now we'd had an edition change, and we're still getting units, like the Northkin Raiders who have RNG8. For that matter the Highwaymen also have RNG8, and the Slag Troll also at RNG8. Why haven't some of these ranges been increased with the change to Far Strike. 2) Pyre/Slag Troll Animus. So it used to be you'd bring these beasts to buff damage on our mostly pillow fisted beasts. Now you're limited to Rok and the Mauler (and I guess the Mountain King), and you pretty much have to bring them in every list if you want to have beasts that can crack armor. It also makes Horgle1 far less useful. So it seems to be a change to something that I never heard a complaint about, that reduces the usefulness of a few models, and makes list building more restricted, rather than less. Further they reduced the Fury on some beasts, and none of them got an increase in their P+S. WTF? Yeah, what the hell.... These two changes makes two hugh problems. First, that makes all Trollbloods light warbeasts useless save for Bouncer and Axer(I don't think that Rush is useful that much but he is a great warbeast missile with Rage). Although even in MKII there are few useful lights. Second, it means that you must bring a Dire Troll Mauler or more expensive option(character heavies with more than P+S 17 weapon or a gargantuan) to crack even the modest heavy jack/beast armor if you ever play Trollbloods. The release of Dire Troll Brawler is a godsend for such a ridiculous situation, but still P+S 17 is somewhat problematic(you may add +1 STR by Stone Scribe Elder, though) and you better bring a Dire Troll Mauler anyways in the most times. To make things worse, both problems make the list composition of Trollbloods more static than MKII. Not so useful lights as well as forces you to pay for at least 6+15 is just not making sense. Wasn't minimum 3+5 list on MKII(6+8 for now) enough tax for every single list for a faction to make a functional list? Well, with right buff and skills you can still play Trollbloods, but anyway your list would be more static and you will not enjoy much varients.... even worse than MKII. As I think Cygnar a Storm Lances faction, Trollbloods seems a tax faction. 3) Madrak1 loses his feat. So I used to play Madrak1 quite a bit in MKII. He had an interesting make it or break it feat. Basically if I could find a ladder of bodies, I had a good chance of chewing up most of the opposing infantry, killing the caster. In MKIII this is given exclusively to Madrak2, with a minor tweak that it cannot effect warlocks, which isn't a big deal, since I usually didn't use Madrak to kill the opposing force anyway. None of which is to say that the new Madrak 1 is a bad caster, or lacking in any way. He might just be one of our strongest. WTF? The only problem on him is COST 3 on Even Ground, which seems encouraged to use Blood Boons that is only a fancy idea in the real games. Madrak1 needs to be reworked, and he didn't lost much of his own feature. 4) Kriel Warriors lost Prayer. So Kriel Warriors have been one of my favorites for a long time. The addition of prayers gave them a nice boost in the versitity department, and I never heard anybody complaining about them. In MKIII they lose prays, gain Unyielding. Finally the cabers go back to being single use per turn, on a P+S Weapon that's basically the same as a Fennblade. WTF? What the hell(2). They are do nothing but got slaughtered now. Although they may draw the attention of the enemy well due to their good size and still reasonable durability per points if you put the ARM buff aura.... --- However, nothing is only got worse. There are still some advantages such as ★Action to gain fury on the stone, Bombers no longer needs for Impailer tax(in exchange for removing Impailers from the game) and they are still very powerful, and capable overall change on Champions(that was stealed a signature ability on Bastions).
|
|
|
Post by Trollock on Dec 4, 2017 7:11:11 GMT
I basically disagree with everything in here. Except the last little glimmer of hope. Everything you write is true at a glance, sure, but it feels like you are missing all the subtle nuances that make the faction work. I wrote a "faction overview" before MK3 was released but after the cards were spoiled. My assessment of the faction back then was very similar to what you write here. The arrival of theme forces, the CID changes in addition to playing hundreds of games over the last year and a half has changed my mind on most accounts though. Im not saying everything is perfect, but there is a lot more to the faction than the initial "WTF!?"-impressions. The most important thing is: What things used to do in MK2 is absolutely irrelevant. No one else plays with MK2 rules, and it is not a MK2 meta. Focus on how the game is now instead and play games. You will find the faction enjoyable if you give it some time im sure.
|
|
mattmcd
Junior Strategist
Posts: 521
|
Post by mattmcd on Dec 4, 2017 14:22:38 GMT
After the not thinking rush is useful comment I just sorta went... yeah... he’s just a little upset right now. The faction is super fun to play and winning percentages are extremely balanced across the entire game honestly.
|
|
|
Post by greenjello on Dec 4, 2017 15:01:16 GMT
I basically disagree with everything in here. Except the last little glimmer of hope. Okay, then what is the solution to the pillow fisted Troll heavy warbeasts? The two solution appear to be to include Rok or Mauler. We currently have two heavies with a P+S of 18 or greater, one of which is Rok. With the Brawler we gain a heavy with P+S of 17. So less than half our heavies can crack armor on their own, without help. This is almost a direct inverse of the other factions, where having a heavy with less than P+S 17 is an exception, not the rule. If you disagree, maybe you're seeing something droopingpuppy and I are missing? This made sense when we have 3 different ways to buff our heavies, but with mkIII does not. Further it appears that the change to animi was pretty universal, so it appears that PP applied a general rule, and didn't think about how this effected Trolls specifically. So it appears to be a fairly large oversight, IMHO. Maybe the answer is to use our Infantry? I know we've now got some of the best weapon master infantry in the game, and a decent chance to deliver them. We also have a number of ways to up the damage output of our infantry in general. Maybe part of the answer is that ARM buffs are less common? I know spiny growth is now SELF, which removes a lot of the ARM buffs in game. Have there been other changes? As for comparing editions, I personally find it interesting in a reading the tea leaves sort of way. It's interesting to me to track the evolution of the game, and speculate on what the developers might be thinking. It's also useful for making suggestions during the next CID for trolls or other factions. mattmcd - Actually if you look at the stats from WTC, you'll see trolls had the worst winning percentage in the game, coming in at around 35%. I believe this was prior to the CID and new Northkin models. However, none of CID changes fix the problem of cracking armor with beasts. And let me be clear, I'm not upset about Trolls, or where they are. I'm winning games, I'm having fun, I like the faction. I'm not going to rage quit. The WTF?!? is a bit tongue in cheek. However, that doesn't mean some missteps haven't been made, or some things improved. I was hoping maybe I had missed a dev pronouncement (perhaps during a CID) about why things were a certain way. It was interesting to hear that all light beasts had had their animi reduced to SELF, which I hadn't realized before.
|
|
mattmcd
Junior Strategist
Posts: 521
|
Post by mattmcd on Dec 4, 2017 15:18:12 GMT
Pre-CID i’m with you. We were in a tough spot for sure. And yes, we are stuck with a few models/units, but simply because those models are really good (looking at you stone and Mauler). Saying that a Mauler is in every list and then asking how we crack armor is rhetorical. We crack armor by including rage in our lists or (new after CID) spamming weapon masters.
|
|
|
Post by sundaytaco on Dec 4, 2017 15:44:02 GMT
I can't believe this is a thread. I'm also posting here so i guess I suck too. But seriously just play the game. No point in Noting how things aren't the same or how stuff used to be better, or you can't use X to do Y anymore. It's and ALL NEW WAR, just put some models on the table. There are plenty of viable lists at the local level, you don't need to play a masters list to win, and even if you did, most likely, you can't pilot it anyway. my 2 cents
|
|
|
Post by greenjello on Dec 4, 2017 15:52:54 GMT
Saying that a Mauler is in every list and then asking how we crack armor is rhetorical. Nobody is saying that the Mauler won't crack armor. What we are pointing out is that our options have been greatly limited, and there doesn't appear to be a good reason for it. It appears that PP missed an opportunity to address this, and failed to do so. They really made it worse, but reducing the Fury of a couple of our heavy warbeasts, such as the EBDT and Mauler. Improving the damage output of the EBDT would have been a great step in the right direction, particularly since he keeps getting worse and worse as time goes on. He was supposed to be really special, as our Warbeast of Renoun, or whatever the psuedo character beasts were called in mkI. Now he's a durable heavy with a few interesting tricks, and an okay animus. Same could be said for the Blitzer. I'll leave the bomber out of this, since he's amazing, and asking for decent melee damage is a bit much.
|
|
mattmcd
Junior Strategist
Posts: 521
|
Post by mattmcd on Dec 4, 2017 16:12:24 GMT
I hear complaints about how good the Earthborn is more than any beast we have. I’m so confused right now. Lol
|
|
|
Post by sundaytaco on Dec 4, 2017 16:21:20 GMT
I hear complaints about how good the Earthborn is more than any beast we have. I’m so confused right now. Lol Don't be, OP hasnt actually played MK 3, he's behind in actual game hours. He's got the MKII Hangover
|
|