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Post by Trollock on Oct 31, 2017 20:18:33 GMT
Dire Troll Picked-Up-An-Axe-Guy Same stats as a Mauler but furry 4 and one 2" P+S 17 Animus - Something shitty to keep cost down. 12 points. We sort of got the Brawler to fit that slot. Sure, making it worse and cheaper is an idea, but i doubt we will see 12 point heavies any time soon. That would be soo much more broken than juggernaughts imo...
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Post by elricaltovilla on Oct 31, 2017 20:22:03 GMT
Dire Troll Picked-Up-An-Axe-Guy Same stats as a Mauler but furry 4 and one 2" P+S 17 Animus - Something shitty to keep cost down. 12 points. We sort of got the Brawler to fit that slot. Sure, making it worse and cheaper is an idea, but i doubt we will see 12 point heavies any time soon. That would be soo much more broken than juggernaughts imo... Why not? Shadowhorn and Gnarlhorn Satyrs exist and they're 12 points. They're even useable in certain lists.
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Post by Trollock on Oct 31, 2017 20:36:35 GMT
We sort of got the Brawler to fit that slot. Sure, making it worse and cheaper is an idea, but i doubt we will see 12 point heavies any time soon. That would be soo much more broken than juggernaughts imo... Why not? Shadowhorn and Gnarlhorn Satyrs exist and they're 12 points. They're even useable in certain lists. But a 12 point troll heavy with P+S 17 and 2" reach? Be serious The Satyrs are basically lights if you look at their stat lines.
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Post by elricaltovilla on Oct 31, 2017 21:39:00 GMT
Why not? Shadowhorn and Gnarlhorn Satyrs exist and they're 12 points. They're even useable in certain lists. But a 12 point troll heavy with P+S 17 and 2" reach? Be serious The Satyrs are basically lights if you look at their stat lines. One initial that does less damage than a Juggernaut's isn't that impressive. I'd say it's still comparable. You're talking max 5 P+S 17s vs. 4 P+S 19s and a P+S 15, unbuffed. Those numbers might destroy an enemy heavy under ideal circumstances, but you need buffs to actually come close to guaranteeing it, at which point the cost for the 5 P+S 17s increases by 15 points because you have to pay for a mauler.
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gdnerd
Junior Strategist
Posts: 656
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Post by gdnerd on Oct 31, 2017 22:56:35 GMT
Thats before Krielstone and ignoring the fact that Hordes output isn't constrained by focus like Warmachine does. Sure you have to handle it on the next turn but running hot has 0 cost to you now. And if you opponent isn't killing your stuff and managing your fury for you then you're probably winning the game.
As someone who plays Trolls at a competitive level the beast you just described is BROKEN at 12 points. I'd take Mulg and an Earthborn and replace them with 3 of these and not bat an eye. It would be unacceptably good.
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Post by elricaltovilla on Oct 31, 2017 23:30:15 GMT
Thats before Krielstone and ignoring the fact that Hordes output isn't constrained by focus like Warmachine does. Sure you have to handle it on the next turn but running hot has 0 cost to you now. And if you opponent isn't killing your stuff and managing your fury for you then you're probably winning the game. As someone who plays Trolls at a competitive level the beast you just described is BROKEN at 12 points. I'd take Mulg and an Earthborn and replace them with 3 of these and not bat an eye. It would be unacceptably good. It's also ignoring buffs on the Juggernaut. If you want to account for that, then your best case scenario for such a beast is 5 P+S 25 (17 + 1 + 3 + (-2 ARM)) attacks with free charges from Grim2. Compare that to a Juggernaut with Butcher1 or 2 for 4 P+S 22 attacks and 1 P+S 18 attack with free charge. You then have to compare the two in terms of investment cost. The troll costs you 12+15+9 points minimum, requires your caster to be within 8" of the target, have hit with both weapon and spell, and be within 9" of the krielstone. The Juggernaut fully buffed costs you between 5-7 focus (typically 6) to load up and run in. The numbers look scary for the new troll, but either of those will destroy whatever you put in front of it. However, the troll requires significantly higher cost and specific pieces on the board in specific places. In most cases you're still only killing one heavy a round, the only difference is that now trollbloods only have to risk 12 points to do it instead of 14-19 points. I know you have more experience with trolls than I do, but I've been running Juggernauts for a year straight on a weekly basis. A cheap beatstick heavy is a lot less scary than most people realize. It kills one thing per turn, then it dies once committed. I'm doubtful that giving hordes cheaper, useful heavies will break anything significant.
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gdnerd
Junior Strategist
Posts: 656
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Post by gdnerd on Nov 1, 2017 6:15:34 GMT
Well first of all let's stick with Doom2. No requiring to hit with buffs and TBH Rage + Stone is enough. Also don't count the mauler against the cost of your package because it's a standalone piece in its own right. Then we need to amoritize the cost of krielstone across all the beasts you have, so it ends up being ~1.4 points per model (realistically I wouldn't count it at all because it's basically mandatory in every troll list but thats a discussion I don't think is necessary atm).
At that point you're paying 13.4 points for something that has 5 P+S 18 attacks if you rush and 21 if you can rage. IDK where you're getting the 9" figure of the Krielstone, it caps out at 11" (unless you're presuming min stone which no melee brick should be doing). It's threatening a mimimum of 12 inches and max of 14 inches BEFORE overtake and can surf if you need to send it into infantry. Reach + Wild Aggression + Overtake means basically 5 dead infantry of pretty much any persuasion unless tough is involved.
If you're raging it, it costs 0 fury to rage it with Doom2, rush costs 2 fury. Wild Aggression costs 3, 1 if its the model you've had it on since the start (only need versus infantry or higher def skews). If you can rage it, it will one round pretty much every heavy in the game unless they're getting serious armor buffs from their caster/lock AND will out-threat them by a fair margin.
This is not a Juggernaut which can only brawl with heavies if you spend your full stack or maybe kill a couple clumped infantry in a pinch. In the proper Warlock's hands is 100% fire and forget with a investment of 2-3 fury to turn it on (which by the nature of fury you want to be spending / dropping anyways unlike focus whose value only goes up the more you sit on). This is a heavy that can mulch surf infantry, it can one round pretty much any heavy in the game, and at the end of the day its still a def 12 arm 20 heavy with 30+ boxes that your opponent needs to chew through.
Something like this beast would bring an absurdity to PoD that would make pre-nerf Oracles Fyanna look like nothing. There's a reason the Brawler costs more than the Mauler (and TBH it's probably undercosted by a point or two) - one point of speed and a second initial isn't worth the 5 point discount you've proposed.
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Post by Trollock on Nov 1, 2017 9:51:53 GMT
You speak the truetrue
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A-Mo
Junior Strategist
Posts: 204
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Post by A-Mo on Nov 2, 2017 1:18:49 GMT
Fine, 13pts
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