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Post by welshhoppo on Nov 18, 2017 23:39:08 GMT
You can break colossals in half, easily doing 40+ damage in one poke. Pretty insane. Exactly, you need 2 of them to crack a full colossal. So that's 38 points. Totes fair and balanced!
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Post by Havock on Nov 19, 2017 1:23:20 GMT
One can do it if it boosts the damage roll.
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Post by welshhoppo on Nov 19, 2017 1:30:53 GMT
One can do it if it boosts the damage roll. Well dice +8 in most circumstances. Potential for 18 additional damage. So 26 boxes. Doubled to 52. Yeah, I suppose its doable. Not that I expect it to gain AP. But the Angelius has a ps14 AP weapon... So there are already examples of high pow AP.
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Post by Blargaliscious on Nov 20, 2017 4:04:39 GMT
I think that, while technically an AP POW:18 Reach 2" melee weapon can be balanced points-wise, I think the "optics" of it would not look good - all of the players in other factions would go ape-shit, reality be damned.
But, if that lance were to ever get AP I know what the next spam list would be:
Forward Kommander Sorscha - WJ: +27 - Spriggan - PC: 19 (Battlegroup Points Used: 19) - Spriggan - PC: 19 (Battlegroup Points Used: 8) - Spriggan - PC: 19 - Spriggan - PC: 19 - Spriggan - PC: 19 Greylord Forge Seer - PC: 0 Greylord Forge Seer - PC: 0 Yuri the Axe - PC: 0 Kossite Woodsmen - Leader & 5 Grunts: 7
The Kossites are, of course, the linchpin of the whole thing.
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Post by Mr.Human on Nov 22, 2017 9:44:30 GMT
Make it cheaper, say 15 points and it might see play as it is, otherwise a jugg will always be the nr. 1 beatstick.
Or change it, cavalry rules, arm 22 with shield and AP (say 16) only in charge.
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Post by Havock on Nov 22, 2017 11:52:05 GMT
Cav rules and SO are a bit much, even at 16.
We played with the mk2 Spriggan for a long time. Which was fine. It's just that it got more expensive relatively in mk3.
Relentless Charge. Brutal Charge. Slightly increased range on the flares and lower it to 14. Or keep it at 18 and add Shield Guard for a premium Swiss knife.
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Post by elricaltovilla on Nov 22, 2017 17:25:19 GMT
Cav rules and ARM 22 alone would be fine by me. I think the big thing holding the spriggan back is that it has all this tech that it's paying to use but no way to actually use all its tech in one activation, unlike the Grolar for example.
Giving it Cav rules and an extra ARM would at least give it a clear role to fulfill, with some extra stuff it can do while waiting for the opportunity to use its "intended" function.
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Post by Havock on Nov 24, 2017 0:25:30 GMT
It's a matter of resources and the fact we have stupid things like a decapitation feat in-faction.
Even if they somehow 'balanced' it; it would be such a profoundly powerful thing that every new release would gravitate around it, not unlike the old circle shifting stones.
I'm all for beefing it up (or cutting the price tag down!), but it doesn't need such a buff.
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Post by hocestbellum on Nov 24, 2017 11:45:46 GMT
I've played a few smaller games using the Spriggan recently, and whilst I can't change my vote on the poll, I've changed my mind on it. I don't think that the Spriggan needs an AP* attack. It would be cool if it could have one, but I think I had previously been doing it a disservice, as it still gets a lot done.
If it gained Sturdy, I would actually take it a reasonable amount. In listbuilding I keep finding myself wanting something that can't be dragged and killed by, say, Axiom or Helios. All of our current options for that are absolute tanks, but can't crack ARM effectively. Giving it Sturdy would allow me to have something undraggable that is more than just a roadblock; P18 is plenty for ARM cracking. It also fits with the theme of the chassis.
It should also come down in points. It is the only non-character jack that didn't get at least 2 points cheaper in the transition (I think?), so I would imagine 18 pts would be okay. I think 17 points feels about right, personally, because the Jugger chassis having MAT7 is a significant advantage, but that puts the Demolisher and the Decimator in bad light.
As a tangent, I think the Demolisher should drop to 15 points (as we don't have a 15 pt jack, and now it is AoE3 it's not really a significant upgrade to the Devastator) and the Decimator should go back up to P18 on the Ripsaw (So then we have P16, 17, 18 and 19 main weapons on the Jugger Chassis, which seems neat, and helps justify the cost of the Deci).
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Post by blindfury on Nov 26, 2017 18:16:55 GMT
I think that, while technically an AP POW:18 Reach 2" melee weapon can be balanced points-wise, I think the "optics" of it would not look good - all of the players in other factions would go ape-shit, reality be damned. But, if that lance were to ever get AP I know what the next spam list would be: Forward Kommander Sorscha - WJ: +27 - Spriggan - PC: 19 (Battlegroup Points Used: 19) - Spriggan - PC: 19 (Battlegroup Points Used: 8) - Spriggan - PC: 19 - Spriggan - PC: 19 - Spriggan - PC: 19 Greylord Forge Seer - PC: 0 Greylord Forge Seer - PC: 0 Yuri the Axe - PC: 0 Kossite Woodsmen - Leader & 5 Grunts: 7 The Kossites are, of course, the linchpin of the whole thing. Aye, AP was meant more as an illustration of the value I would need to pay 18-20 points for the model in the current environment. I agree, AP is probably not as bad as it first seems but the “optics” would not look so great. It’s too bad really. I love the model and the rager for the same reason. I love the sword and board esthetic (one of several reasons I love shock troopers too.) I do not think it likely the model will pick up cavalry rules since it is not in keeping with the other chassis variants and it it would conflict with the Kodiak design.
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Post by tjhairball on Nov 30, 2017 0:02:18 GMT
I've played a few smaller games using the Spriggan recently, and whilst I can't change my vote on the poll, I've changed my mind on it. I don't think that the Spriggan needs an AP* attack. It would be cool if it could have one, but I think I had previously been doing it a disservice, as it still gets a lot done. If it gained Sturdy, I would actually take it a reasonable amount. In listbuilding I keep finding myself wanting something that can't be dragged and killed by, say, Axiom or Helios. All of our current options for that are absolute tanks, but can't crack ARM effectively. Giving it Sturdy would allow me to have something undraggable that is more than just a roadblock; P18 is plenty for ARM cracking. It also fits with the theme of the chassis. It should also come down in points. It is the only non-character jack that didn't get at least 2 points cheaper in the transition (I think?), so I would imagine 18 pts would be okay. I think 17 points feels about right, personally, because the Jugger chassis having MAT7 is a significant advantage, but that puts the Demolisher and the Decimator in bad light. As a tangent, I think the Demolisher should drop to 15 points (as we don't have a 15 pt jack, and now it is AoE3 it's not really a significant upgrade to the Devastator) and the Decimator should go back up to P18 on the Ripsaw (So then we have P16, 17, 18 and 19 main weapons on the Jugger Chassis, which seems neat, and helps justify the cost of the Deci). It never really was a significant upgrade to the Devastator. Lower blast damage POW, less area covered, and no ability to auto-hit with a POW 18 by going B2B with something. AFAIK, the only big points in favor of the Demolisher involved either Harkevich or the Hunting Wolves theme (the latter was my reason for building a Demolisher with the multikit I bought rather than a Devastator or a second Spriggan). I've commented other times that I think PP was balancing around Harkevich and that led to them reining in the Demolisher (along with other ranged Khador warjacks).
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Post by hocestbellum on Nov 30, 2017 11:08:18 GMT
It was only one less power on the blast, and 2x 4" AoEs in mkII which, whilst mathematically less than the 3" from base, actually had some threat projection. The fact you could actually use its weapons without effectively sacrificing it was a big plus IMO.
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Post by elricaltovilla on Dec 1, 2017 12:20:59 GMT
Probably a bad idea to suggest on the AP front, but what if the AP Star Attack was fluffed as coming from a special warhead on the Lance (like the Iron Fangs have), then we could reduce it's POW with the justification of "fluff" and make it a more balanced option. Something like:
Armor-Piercing Warhead (* Attack): The POW of this weapon becomes 2, and the attack gains Armor-Piercing (when calculating damage from this weapon halve the base ARM stats of models hit).
I'm personally still more intrigued by having a cavalry jack, but I like trying to make seemingly bad ideas work. This would make it a P+S 14 base * attack like the angelius.
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Post by kovnikninehouse on Dec 2, 2017 19:42:44 GMT
I really like the idea of the warhead on the Lance so a blast 10 centered on the target hit with the charge would be awesome. Or instead of blast 10 it could cause ether a knock down AOE or a disruption AOE.
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Post by welshhoppo on Dec 2, 2017 20:11:00 GMT
What if!
The Spriggan gained the Crushing Weight rule of the Gun Carriage.
Maybe the ton of bricks rule too.
We already have the Mad "Tramplebot!" Dog. How about a premium version?
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