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Post by wolf9416 on Mar 27, 2017 20:58:19 GMT
Hey all,
I have a tournament coming up in about a month that is three lists, 75 points, and I'm looking for some help on nailing down some lists. I'm just getting back into Skorne for the competitive scene and still trying to nail down the lists and parings, so I am open to suggestions on the individual lists as well as the overall paring.
Here are a couple of lists that I was looking at:
(Morghoul 2) Lord Assassin Morghoul [+29]
- Archidon [10]
- Basilisk Krea [7]
- Molik Karn [19]
- Titan Cannoneer [17]
- Titan Gladiator [15]
- Aptimus Marketh [5]
Paingiver Bloodrunner Master Tormentor [4]
Paingiver Bloodrunner Master Tormentor [4]
Paingiver Beast Handlers (min) [5]
Paingiver Bloodrunners [9]
Paingiver Bloodrunners [9]
I have gotten in a few games with this Morghul list and I am enjoying it quite a bit. Bloodrunners are super strong and I really like how Morg turned out after the errata. I'm not 100% set on the beast package, I don't know if the cannoneer is really earning its points in my games, but overall it seems to be performing well.
The second list I'm looking into is Mak2 double ferox. This list is still theory and definitely open to changes:
(Makeda 2) Supreme Archdomina Makeda [+27]
- Despoiler [19]
- Titan Gladiator [15]
Mortitheurge Willbreaker [4]
Swamp Gobber Chef [1]
Tyrant Rhadeim [9]
Legends of Halaak [8]
Praetorian Ferox (max) [20]
Praetorian Ferox (max) [20]
Tyrant Commander & Standard Bearer [6]
Other lists I have been thinking of are a Zaadesh brick, Rasheth/Hexy gunline, Naaresh/Xerxis2 beast list. I have pretty much one of everything in the faction, but not a lot of doubles. Any thoughts or suggestions would be greatly appreciated!
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demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
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Post by demonic on Mar 28, 2017 0:14:10 GMT
in your first list, unfortunately, your only range threat is the cannoneer so even if it doesn't seem like he's earning his points, he's helping you dictate the battlefield. I'd prefer to put an Aradus Sentinal in there instead, as they are rather tanky against range and if you run into a list with artillery, you'll quickly find yourself lacking the punching power necessary to take full advantage of morghoul2.
Second list, get rid of the despoiler and willbreaker, replace with Molik Karn. remove commander and standard, put in brute, krea, or aggy. You're low on fury generators and don't have beast handlers to medicate them back to life. A skilled player would immediately go for the despoiler (weakest character beast in the game) while spreading out their units enough that your Ferox won't be able to pounce their caster. After taking down the Despoiler, you'd have to start giving up on reviving the Ferox. The moment Makeda loses her fury she'd become an easy assassination target. With Karn you can make them reroll attacks when they get a lucky hit. You'll also have the Molik Missile. Including the brute would give you a shield guard, Krea would make your kitties hard to kill at a distance, and aggy is just overall annoying. Choose one and you should have some points left over for a solo, probably not enough for Orin though.
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Post by fragpalm on Mar 28, 2017 14:22:59 GMT
in your first list, unfortunately, your only range threat is the cannoneer so even if it doesn't seem like he's earning his points, he's helping you dictate the battlefield. I'd prefer to put an Aradus Sentinal in there instead, as they are rather tanky against range and if you run into a list with artillery, you'll quickly find yourself lacking the punching power necessary to take full advantage of morghoul2. Second list, get rid of the despoiler and willbreaker, replace with Molik Karn. remove commander and standard, put in brute, krea, or aggy. You're low on fury generators and don't have beast handlers to medicate them back to life. A skilled player would immediately go for the despoiler (weakest character beast in the game) while spreading out their units enough that your Ferox won't be able to pounce their caster. After taking down the Despoiler, you'd have to start giving up on reviving the Ferox. The moment Makeda loses her fury she'd become an easy assassination target. With Karn you can make them reroll attacks when they get a lucky hit. You'll also have the Molik Missile. Including the brute would give you a shield guard, Krea would make your kitties hard to kill at a distance, and aggy is just overall annoying. Choose one and you should have some points left over for a solo, probably not enough for Orin though. Totally agree with getting Molik in your Mak2 list. Though sometimes the Mortitheurge is necessary for making sure you can force Molik when he's way out on the table after being flung. Better players than me seem content not to have the Mortitheurge in their Makeda lists. I'm also new to building three lists for events, but I'll be attending the SOO this year, so I'm in the same boat as you. I'm simply taking my normal pairing and adding a specialist. Xerxis2: Heavy cracker and my main workhorse considering the heavy meta. Makeda1: Similar to your Mak2 list; an excellent jammer with a variety of tools. She's my generalist, reserved for games against Menoth, Legion and some Trolls. Hexeris2: Pure dudespam counter, in case I encounter Ghost Fleet, or Merc and Ret infantry swarms. I found categorizing their roles into specific factions helped me establish a reasonable plan. I think your Morg2 list does the dudespam job (for Mortality, and lots of Anatomical Precision), but also handles a decent Molik strategy. Mak2 is your generalist, and I've seen firsthand this sort of list pulverize opponents. When it comes to your third list, you might want a beast brick, like you mentioned. Morg1 and Xerxis2 deal out high damage, swift battlegroups.
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Post by wolf9416 on Mar 28, 2017 15:40:38 GMT
Thanks for the tips guys. I like the Despoiler in the Makeda list for the utility of a free upkeep, plus darkshroud helps the list against armor which I feel like it can struggle with because at a certain point the kitties just don't have the damage output to deal with heavies. Of course Molik can handle the heavies himself, and I will definitely try that swap to see how it goes. I do agree that having another beast in there would likely be good for the extra utility and fury, I will try out a couple different options and see what fits.
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demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
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Post by demonic on Mar 28, 2017 17:59:31 GMT
I should probably do this like an info-mercial but yeah... make one of your lists a Zaal2 exhalted list. Even if you are just using it as intimidation, everyone is becoming more and more warry of his lists. If we get an exhalted theme, you're going to see it get stacked even heavier. The thing about Zaal2 exhalted lists is that you have 20-30 immortals in them that can turn incorporeal by turn. Usually their speed is an issue but with the ancestral guardians they all get +2 movement. With Hakaar they then all get +1 mat x.O; then on feat turn they get +5 armor, making their base armor 22, 26 for hakaar when he has his souls. They all have vengeance to boot, and we all know how hard our exhalted models can hit. There are not many lists that can handle them, especially since their weapons are magical. The only reason I'm not running a Zaal2 list is because I lack the required 20+ immortals (right now I only have 10 with me, the other 10 are in a box that I currently do not have access too for about another month)
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Post by bennep on Mar 29, 2017 9:42:05 GMT
My €0,02:
For your Makeda2 list I'd try to determine what you want to do with it: it has a serious attrition advantage in stay death/tough-noKD and a good assassination potential in feat (+ storm rager on something if you want it). You can strengthen the assassination game with Molik but it leaves you a bit weaker vs armour (Despoiler really helps the cats out in that department). You can strengthen the armour matchup with Despoiler. I like the free upkeep of Storm Rager on Rhadeim. Tank & hardhitting! Whatever you choose, I'd go with a Krea either way, to really up the anti-shooting aspect.
I'm not sure what the Morghoul2 list tries to achieve, but I'd definitely keep the cannonneer in there for a ranged threat. Pick out important solos/CAs or harass the enemy. It can do work even in melee with Mortality & enrage.
As a third list: Zaal2 all the stone(d) dudes isn't a bad option. It's got a bit of a reputation and it has some options. Double drake, krea, triple immortals (2 with advocate), Hakaar and an AG makes a good baseline for the list.
Alternatively you can go for a good ranged list with Rasheth, Hexeris2 (+mammoth<3) or Xekaar (since Morghoul2 seems to be already in your pairing in a non-ranged focused list). Haven't tried Winds of Death yet, but I worry about not having all that much to put up front to receive the charge or put in to the zone.
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Post by toconut on Mar 29, 2017 14:30:12 GMT
I've been playing a lot of makeda2 lately and I can tell you the most important part of the list are Willbreakers. They're the support needed in the list and tough is the only mechanic that allow you to play an highlander style list. With tough and dodge your ferox can withstand 9 serious injuries and still not die, while without you would only stay death 6. Difference between 6 and 9 is huge since dodge and health boxes, coupled with solid defensive stats, will require way more effort on your opponent's part than you'd think.
I would also recommend reach warbeast only, so that you can attack through ferox and then cover los. Makeda alphas with cavalry, and doesn't want to offer your opponent targets you can't stay death. That's why you don't need Gladiator at all. You also don't need to worry about shooting, since your beasts will be covered from cats (same base size) and thus won't be shot at.
My advice: For infantry -Tough/Steady infantry -High quality units or solos. The higher the value, the better the stay death. Legends and Ferox require a lot of work to get killed, neutering most of your opponent's list attacks. -High survivability models.
For battlegroup: -Slow is OK. Choose models that can help you thorough the whole game, those who contribute when they're not in melee. -You only need one heavy hitter to close the game. Stay death will block lanes to him, just enough to get more turns of melee -Despoiler is awesome because he has value even if he doesn't attack: effectively gives you one fury, can run and dark shroud, staying safe, can neuter some important techs with his animus such as butcher3, sorshka1 or amon late game. -Krea is good because makes infantry harder to kill, thus rising efficiency of stay death -Tiberion, Sentry, Brute have shield guard. It can open whole matchups if they take drags/grievous wounds shots -Cannoneer, Aradus Sentinel, Raider, Shaman have value in their long shots, allowing you to take out key pieces without sacrificing infantry (again, increases stay death efficiency) -Molik Kharn can do work and go back with animus, and very rarely contribute to a caster kill
Utility: -Willbreakers are a must. They drastically increase stay death efficiency both with tough and with continous effects. They also enable assassinations (mostly done by ferox and Radheim) because of puppet master. Many games I've won by assassination. -Tycom helps with threat. He's a solid beater too, will help late game. -Orin prevents the only weakness of the list, but can't be stay death. Depending on the matchups, might be good -Master Tormentor is high quality/high survivability solo. Very good stay death target.
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Post by wolf9416 on Mar 29, 2017 14:58:16 GMT
I would love to run the Zaal2 30 immortals list but only have one unit at the moment and don't have the time/money to buy the extra models before the upcoming tournament I think that a ranged Hexeris list would be a good third option to give some more tools in the matchup process. What kind of lists are people currently running with him? You mentioned the mammoth, and I'm assuming Reviers and slingers would be in there as well, but what do you fill out the rest of the points with? Not sure if the theme force is currently the best way to build him, but it seems like a good place to start: Skorne Army - 50 / 75 points [Theme] Winds of Death (Hexeris 2) Lord Arbiter Hexeris [+27] - Mammoth [38] Extoller Soulward [3] Mortitheurge Willbreaker [4] Venator Catapult Crew [0] Venator Reivers (max) [15] - Venator Reiver Officer & Standard [4] Venator Slingers (max) [13] Would probably like another beast or two in there to use as arc nodes, probably a razor worm or archidon? I also own another min unit of Reivers which I could put in there to get another free catapult, but I don't know if that is the best way to spend the points or if just going for beasts or more solos is the best option.
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Post by wolf9416 on Mar 29, 2017 15:00:50 GMT
I've been playing a lot of makeda2 lately and I can tell you the most important part of the list are Willbreakers. They're the support needed in the list and tough is the only mechanic that allow you to play an highlander style list. With tough and dodge your ferox can withstand 9 serious injuries and still not die, while without you would only stay death 6. Difference between 6 and 9 is huge since dodge and health boxes, coupled with solid defensive stats, will require way more effort on your opponent's part than you'd think. I would also recommend reach warbeast only, so that you can attack through ferox and then cover los. Makeda alphas with cavalry, and doesn't want to offer your opponent targets you can't stay death. That's why you don't need Gladiator at all. You also don't need to worry about shooting, since your beasts will be covered from cats (same base size) and thus won't be shot at. My advice: For infantry -Tough/Steady infantry -High quality units or solos. The higher the value, the better the stay death. Legends and Ferox require a lot of work to get killed, neutering most of your opponent's list attacks. -High survivability models. For battlegroup: -Slow is OK. Choose models that can help you thorough the whole game, those who contribute when they're not in melee. -You only need one heavy hitter to close the game. Stay death will block lanes to him, just enough to get more turns of melee -Despoiler is awesome because he has value even if he doesn't attack: effectively gives you one fury, can run and dark shroud, staying safe, can neuter some important techs with his animus such as butcher3, sorshka1 or amon late game. -Krea is good because makes infantry harder to kill, thus rising efficiency of stay death -Tiberion, Sentry, Brute have shield guard. It can open whole matchups if they take drags/grievous wounds shots -Cannoneer, Aradus Sentinel, Raider, Shaman have value in their long shots, allowing you to take out key pieces without sacrificing infantry (again, increases stay death efficiency) -Molik Kharn can do work and go back with animus, and very rarely contribute to a caster kill Utility: -Willbreakers are a must. They drastically increase stay death efficiency both with tough and with continous effects. They also enable assassinations (mostly done by ferox and Radheim) because of puppet master. Many games I've won by assassination. -Tycom helps with threat. He's a solid beater too, will help late game. -Orin prevents the only weakness of the list, but can't be stay death. Depending on the matchups, might be good -Master Tormentor is high quality/high survivability solo. Very good stay death target. Thank you for your thoughts! I really like the flexibility and different options that Makeda2 can bring, just comes down to narrowing down the best options for the meta and the pairings I guess. Any chance you have any battle reports of your games? Really interested in seeing more of how the list plays out and how some other people position and play, because it does seem to be a list that requires some solid play to be at its most effective.
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Post by toconut on Mar 29, 2017 15:48:15 GMT
Thank you for your thoughts! I really like the flexibility and different options that Makeda2 can bring, just comes down to narrowing down the best options for the meta and the pairings I guess. Any chance you have any battle reports of your games? Really interested in seeing more of how the list plays out and how some other people position and play, because it does seem to be a list that requires some solid play to be at its most effective. Not at the moment, I had some in the old forums but got deleted and were with a different list. I can share my reasoning behind what I'm going to try though. I've been using double cannoneers for a while, but recently decided to abandon them because every circle player now has loki. Now I'm forced to hope in a 11+ to one shot sentry stones (one of the 2 cannoneers gets shield guarded) and the other match I needed them into, cygnar (I had extollers for haley 3 cloudwall), is now starting to play Caine3 with 9 chargers and I can't afford that many stay death on his feat turn (22 rat9 ps15 shots, most boosted). Makeda kind of lost cygnar as a matchup and circle doesn't require cannoneers any longer. I also didn't like the fact they were really slow compared to the rest of the list, and usually had troubles charging in feat. My next try will be with a more standardized version: Makeda -Despoiler -Krea Willbreaker Willbreaker Radheim Master Tormentor Ferox max Ferox max Legends TyCom I chose to use this list (credits to PG_Rorin for the base I think, go check wmhnorrland to read some reports) over my old one because it has an easier time into khador, and LEGENDS plus TYCOM help a lot facing new meta lists such as legion (who now fields a free beast basically, but suffers immensely from hard hitting high mat models), Circle (more infantry equals more disposable models to kill stones with, and legends can easily kill a wolf) and Mercs (KREA makes it way easier to face 26 trenchers, khador rifle spam or ossrum). I decided not to go with beast handlers because i feel like DESPOILER will often be able to walk in melee and during feat turn his crit will come in play significantly. A reach heavy was needed to face Harkevich, because he can't kill enough ferox before despoiler kills most jacks. He also needs Radheim's help anyways to finish off heaviest targets, so I'm going to try and devote their points to Tycom (VERY helpful against minions and baldur2, because it makes it trivial to remove wrong eye) and a master tormentor. I chose the latter because with free upkeep he hits very reliably, it's difficult to remove and helps a ton with tough (troll, mercs). This last trait can make the difference if I were to go into a mirror, since he can trash few models with no tough and auto wound, being worth 2 or 3 stay death alone. Also, having a stealth model can be situationally very useful in contesting, and his synergy with press forward and sprint can keep AD models honest.
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Post by wolf9416 on Mar 30, 2017 15:20:03 GMT
I chose to use this list (credits to PG_Rorin for the base I think, go check wmhnorrland to read some reports) Thanks for all of the tips, and I will definitely go check that out for some reports!
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Post by bloodsplatterartist on Mar 31, 2017 13:34:24 GMT
Can double kitties play into synergy casters like Amon or is that a matchup for your second list?
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