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Post by Aegis on Sept 22, 2017 11:28:53 GMT
The precedente was set, amongst a few others, Thunderhead in Heavy Metal... Also, I don't think the #1 theme in Cygnar needs to have a shutdown tool added to it. Jisidro, I know you get orticaria every time someone talks to add something (anything) to Cygnar in general, but as usual you are forgetting that more options don't mean necessarily stronger. We was just talking about how the "Shutdown Tool" is in 90% of the situations worse than a Centurion (that costs less). Adding it to the theme just means that sometimes, instead of fighting against a Centurion, you will fight against something that often is worse than it. (You would still pay for Brickhouse, so if he is in, something else is out). The only difference is that a model that almost never see play could see some, and some casters that aren't exactly at the top now (Jakes2, but also Darius in that regard. Brickhouse+Refuge could work well) would see some more play than the usual Haleys.
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Post by jisidro on Sept 22, 2017 11:43:16 GMT
The precedente was set, amongst a few others, Thunderhead in Heavy Metal... Also, I don't think the #1 theme in Cygnar needs to have a shutdown tool added to it. Jisidro, I know you get orticaria every time someone talks to add something to Cygnar in general ... I'd agree with this: "Jisidro, I know you get orticaria every time someone talks to add something to Cygnar in general" as a generalization... In this case it's the #1 theme, why would it get another character heavy tacked on it? I've played against Heavy Metal and seen all played jacks on the other side of the table... It's not a 1 list theme, at all.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Sept 22, 2017 11:48:18 GMT
Jisidro, I know you get orticaria every time someone talks to add something to Cygnar in general ... I'd agree with this: "Jisidro, I know you get orticaria every time someone talks to add something to Cygnar in general" as a generalization... In this case it's the #1 theme, why would it get another character heavy tacked on it? I've played against Heavy Metal and seen all played jacks on the other side of the table... It's not a 1 list theme, at all. Dark Host is the #1 theme....
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Post by darkangeldentist on Sept 22, 2017 11:55:14 GMT
One advantage of Brickhouse is that he completely shuts down stuff like Admonition, Enliven and Stumbling Drunk Sadly I'm with Octavius on this... Brickhouse has some great abilities, but they are all greatly situational. If planets align he is superb, but how often it happens? How many times you happen to fight with casters that have things like Admonition, Enliven or Stumbling Drunk, and they put the model with that ability into 9" from Brickhouse? 3% of the times? How many times you get the alpha with a 9" threat range jack, attack a thing with 1" threat range, and do not kill it with a POW 18 and a POW 15 weapon + extra attacks? 5% of the times? (and even then, how many times the opponent hasn't anything near the blocked jack that can charge Brickhouse and kill it to free the blocked model?) Even Carapace (who is a great ability), feels situational when the comparison is with a jack that costs less, cannot be charged and has +2 ARM against anything instead of +4 against shooting. In general, a Centurion feels a lot more reliable than Brickhouse. His tricks aren't that devasting, but they work almost always. I think that if you had to chose during a game if tricks you needed were Centurion's or Brickhouse's in a date moment, 90% of the times you would take the Centurion. If you then add that Brickhouse isn't included in any theme, and it's bonded to a caster that doesn't really synergize with it (if he was Kraye's or Jakes2's jack, then the chances to applicate his tricks would be far higher), I don't feel any compelling reason to buy it (and repose it). Please be hesitate before asserting what others would take when given a choice. As I said near the start of this thread, I'm all for the unusual and interesting. My use of centurions is pretty rare and only the lack of his model has stopped me using Brickhouse competitively. Since my original post was about how much Kraye liked him it's also rather misleading to talk about his threat range being only 9". Horsepower puts that up to 12" (same as the centurion) and 14" on feat turn and that's only for the direct threat ranges. After repositioning his lock-down threat reaches 17"- 19". He's a solid target for Admonition which adds to the problems opponents will have dealing with him. When thinking of examples where force lock becomes really powerful the ones that spring to mind are against Cryx's swarms of ghostly banes and battle engines. Most battle engines are range focused and the huge base makes it difficult to angle charges to get rid of him and countermeasures would make it even more obnoxious. Brickhouse is also pretty good into the retribution match up since carapace isn't ignored by their many blessed guns and there can't be a lot things sadder than a countermeasures, force locked Ret' battle engine. This is all, admittedly, situational theorymachine and anecdotal positing. For every example I bring up, there will be a counter and that is fine because this game is good enough to allow multiple ways of approaching it. I don't play to lose and I like to win but I can't deny that I like to do so using stuff I like. It requires time, practice (much more than I actually get) and patience. Usually that's why I'm fairly middle of the pack for tournament results but sometimes things go well and I don't make silly mistakes (such as clocking myself). This is why I've not made more contributions to this thread.
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Post by jisidro on Sept 22, 2017 12:10:09 GMT
I'd agree with this: "Jisidro, I know you get orticaria every time someone talks to add something to Cygnar in general" as a generalization... In this case it's the #1 theme, why would it get another character heavy tacked on it? I've played against Heavy Metal and seen all played jacks on the other side of the table... It's not a 1 list theme, at all. Dark Host is the #1 theme.... Meant in cygnar not in the game.
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Post by Aegis on Sept 22, 2017 12:21:34 GMT
Please be hesitate before asserting what others would take when given a choice. As I said near the start of this thread, I'm all for the unusual and interesting. My use of centurions is pretty rare and only the lack of his model has stopped me using Brickhouse competitively. Since my original post was about how much Kraye liked him it's also rather misleading to talk about his threat range being only 9". Horsepower puts that up to 12" (same as the centurion) and 14" on feat turn and that's only for the direct threat ranges. After repositioning his lock-down threat reaches 17"- 19". He's a solid target for Admonition which adds to the problems opponents will have dealing with him. When thinking of examples where force lock becomes really powerful the ones that spring to mind are against Cryx's swarms of ghostly banes and battle engines. Most battle engines are range focused and the huge base makes it difficult to angle charges to get rid of him and countermeasures would make it even more obnoxious. Brickhouse is also pretty good into the retribution match up since carapace isn't ignored by their many blessed guns and there can't be a lot things sadder than a countermeasures, force locked Ret' battle engine. This is all, admittedly, situational theorymachine and anecdotal positing. For every example I bring up, there will be a counter and that is fine because this game is good enough to allow multiple ways of approaching it. I don't play to lose and I like to win but I can't deny that I like to do so using stuff I like. It requires time, practice (much more than I actually get) and patience. Usually that's why I'm fairly middle of the pack for tournament results but sometimes things go well and I don't make silly mistakes (such as clocking myself). This is why I've not made more contributions to this thread. I was talking about him in general. I agree that with casters with some way to reposition after attacking (Jakes2, Darius, Kraye or surprisingly even Sloan) it gets better (while still pretty much on centurion level). That's exactly why I say that it would be great to have it in Heavy Metal, to be able to play it with casters that can make it perform well enough to be worth considering against a Cent.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Sept 22, 2017 12:23:41 GMT
Dark Host is the #1 theme.... Meant in cygnar not in the game. And I re-call some Cygnar players saying it was not very good when it was released, shows how much some people know....
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Post by jisidro on Sept 22, 2017 12:57:03 GMT
Meant in cygnar not in the game. And I re-call some Cygnar players saying it was not very good when it was released, shows how much some people know....
Ghost fleet like almost...
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Post by Aegis on Sept 22, 2017 15:33:08 GMT
Meant in cygnar not in the game. And I re-call some Cygnar players saying it was not very good when it was released, shows how much some people know.... Yeah... I remember it too, and I had to argue on it on the old forum... People at the time were so focussed on Stormlances that basically said that anything that didn't allowed them was trash, and there were some big names between them.
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Post by Aegis on Sept 22, 2017 15:50:32 GMT
Jisidro, I know you get orticaria every time someone talks to add something to Cygnar in general ... I'd agree with this: "Jisidro, I know you get orticaria every time someone talks to add something to Cygnar in general" as a generalization... In this case it's the #1 theme, why would it get another character heavy tacked on it? I've played against Heavy Metal and seen all played jacks on the other side of the table... It's not a 1 list theme, at all. The problem here, in fact, isn't Heavy Metal, but Brickhouse. Putting Brickhouse into Heavy Metal won't make the theme particulary stronger (and that is not the goal at all, as I agree that HM is the best Cygnar theme atm), as often you wouldn't take him anyway, but would make Brickhouse a lot more viable since you could be able to play him with casters that sinergize with him.
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Post by jisidro on Sept 22, 2017 16:11:19 GMT
If the issue is Brickhouse then mess around with him not with stuff that seems well designed and already strong.
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Post by snarlyyow on Sept 22, 2017 16:11:31 GMT
I'd agree with this: "Jisidro, I know you get orticaria every time someone talks to add something to Cygnar in general" as a generalization... In this case it's the #1 theme, why would it get another character heavy tacked on it? I've played against Heavy Metal and seen all played jacks on the other side of the table... It's not a 1 list theme, at all. The problem here, in fact, isn't Heavy Metal, but Brickhouse. Putting Brickhouse into Heavy Metal won't make the theme particulary stronger (and that is not the goal at all, as I agree that HM is the best Cygnar theme atm), as often you wouldn't take him anyway, but would make Brickhouse a lot more viable since you could be able to play him with casters that sinergize with him. I totally agree. He's a fine jack but he's weird with Maddox. I started playing Maddox with a Stormclad/Hammersmith combo. The first she powers up all by herself. The second really likes Assail. I just can't find the room for Brickhouse in a Battlegroup that already feels perfect.
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Post by Aegis on Sept 22, 2017 16:19:05 GMT
If the issue is Brickhouse then mess around with him not with stuff that seems well designed and already strong. Honestly, I think buffing Brickhouse would be actually a stronger buff to Cygnar than putting it into HM. He can work as he is, he just need to be fieldable by other casters, and those casters usually play HM. Since adding char jacks to themes where they fit seems to be already an extabilished fact, and since thematically I think no Cygnar char jack fits "Heavy Metal" more than Brickhouse that has as defining point being an "heavy unamovable metal object", I can't see how adding it to HM should be an issue. As said, it won't change anything for the most powerful Heavy Metal lists (that will likely continue to use Centurions), at best, it will allow some midtier lists to have more variety and for a jack that sits on the shelves to be played. You made the best example mentioning Thunderhead. He is allowed in HM, but you don't see him in most high-end tournament lists, so it doesn't make HM stronger than it would be without. It just adds options for more types of lists to be viable, a thing that everyone should appreciate, even not-Cygnar players.
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Post by jisidro on Sept 22, 2017 16:41:47 GMT
A couple o the WTC lists AFAIK. Let's see how they fare...
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Post by snarlyyow on Sept 22, 2017 16:44:02 GMT
I have played him in mk 3, there is no need to be so confrontational. Saying that his 14/15 is survivable because of arcane shield misses that almost any cygnar caster can have arcane shield up to no ill effect. Also, while he can camp 3 to 4 his spells are often quite inefficient. If you fully load a Heavy and locomote it forward and cast decel you are now are now at 2 to 3 focus, that is simply doing what you want for a single jack. Nothing else. Just buffing stat's by +2 or 3 aren't really "tricks" to me. Reposition and admo are tricks, stat buffs are just that. Nemo *can* buff single models well, but his lack of ability to control the table apart from rocketing one model per turn is limited. Voltaic snare is an OK spell at best. No running or charging limits some threat but it's not like it shuts everything down. When you are facing 8 to 10 marauders it's not fantastic because you can only cast it once and with Karchev their walking threat is up to 8" still. Vs colossals it just forces them to use their guns which they generally want to do anyway. Meanwhile you need an arc node to get value out of this which means either a lancer (who is ok, it doesn't directly contribute to the fight) or a Hurricane (who brings his own meta problems. Saying that nemo is resilient against a bunch of casters seems to not scan? Vs Caine 3 nemo camping 3 with armour 20 dies 50% of the time to Caine 3s unit and a single charger. Sure, you can be out of threat, but so can any other caster. Vs lylith 3 you shouldn't get armour 20, due to naga. If you are camping 3 you die 10% of the time, but lyliths assassination was never about her personal ability to kill its about getting other attacks onto a stationary caster while out threating your army with legion heavies. Vs kara at arm 20 on feat turn you die to kara alone and a single hunter 50% of the time. Feel free to run these numbers through odds machine, nemo isn't uniquely resilient compared to other cygnar casters. So far all you have done is told me that nemo 1 has spells and then said that makes him good. I need you to prove why this makes him better than his competitors and why this is important if you want to keep up this discussion as so far I'm not convinced. Apologies if I was overly hostile. Let me just go over Nemo1's good matchups, which I feel the mirror is his current strongest matchup. Stryker1 - List comp Colossal, Strider, Lances. Mix and match any of this. But Nemo1 doesn't fear the strider, his whole list is immune to electricity. He can voltaic snare the colossal turn after turn, if there's a hurricane Nemo puts Lightning SHroud on the lancer to prevent the Hurricane from doing a lot of damage. Caine3 and Sloan present the same problem, a massive gun line with a bevy of light jacks. Neither of these casters can play into Nemo at all, it's amazing how lopsided it is. Nemo feats turn 2 or bottom of 1, disrupts all the lights doing Dice even or dice +1 damage. Neither caster will use their feat under those conditions which buys who a whole nuther turn, and at that point their lights will all be engaged forcing free strikes to shoot; and those free strikes all happen to jacks who have already taken 5 - 13 damage a piece. Against Haley2 you can Voltaic Snare Thorn, dropping his def to 9, then blast him to bits with Dynamo. And once Haley loses thorn her game goes way downhill fast. I'm pretty certain that aside from a double Stormlance build Nemo owns the mirror pretty heavily. The double lance build is falling out favor and is typically not a great play into Cygnar generally. I agree that any caster can have arcane shield, but how many can double dip an arm buff? Two? If Nemo casts Decel and loads up a jack he's still camping 6, which is borderline absurd. He still has focus leftover to put on other jacks or upkeep LS or cast a Voltaic Snare. Overpower now increases his control area 2" for every focus spent, not 1" like in MKii, so his ability to stay away from the fight is very legitimate. I did run the numbers through odds machine. If Nemo camps 4, Kara and a disrupted hunter's odds of killing him is .2%. So, like, not good at all. If the Hunter isn't disrupted it jumps to .5%. If Kara casts Guided Fire it's better than 1%. If she has two hunters it jumps to 13%. But, again, this just doesn't really happen. Nemo disrupts all the hunters than engages them, forcing free strikes, and they are all banged up and not relevant to the fight. And this isn't some pipe dream I've thought up, I've played it. Chargers and Hunters never even make it to the fight, they get disrupted then engaged and never contribute offensively. Both of those lists, Kara and Caine, their jacks are all dead weight in this fight. So what scares me in the mirror? Maddox, Stryker3, or Stryker1 with double lances. That's about it.
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