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Post by snarlyyow on Sept 21, 2017 15:39:47 GMT
Nemo 1 is much like Darius. He has spells that buff jacks but I am not convinced that he does it better than his competitors. He has no feat and has a habit of falling over dead. I feel like you haven't even played the old man in MKiii. First, his spell kit is amazeballs. Threat extension, strength buff, area denial, ARM buff. The guy really has almost all the tricks. And I know I'm beating a dead horse here but if Voltaic Snare worked on beasts Nemo1 would be a top 3 caster in faction, even with his "sub-par" feat. His feat isn't very good but it's super baller in the matchups you want to play him in. Whether that's the current Ret stable or Cygnar, the feat is actually brilliant in the matchups you're taking Nemo1 into. It's a combination of Damage and Denial and shuts down some of Cygnar's most problematic counters. Like "Oh, I see you brought Caine3 to a Nemo fight. You lose." Lastly, and this is why I think you haven't played the old man in MKiii, he's really survivable. He's 14/15 and can increase his control area. He has Decel, which affects jacks in MKiii as well as himself. Against the best of gunlines I'll put Arcane Shield on him, making him 14/20 against shooting and camping 3 or 4. He doesn't have any reason to show his face ever, he can do everything he needs to do from wwwaaayyyy far back. Nemo's pathetic 14/15 statline is shockingly resilient into even the best gunlines. I've played him into Lilly3, Caine3, Sloan, Helynna and I never worry about losing him.
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Post by Havock on Sept 21, 2017 23:16:12 GMT
Brickhouse shines in a meta with lots of 1" reach jacks and beasts, against infantry or reach opponents its relative merit sinks faster than our hopes and dreams for mk3 did a brick. A brick.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Sept 22, 2017 0:19:10 GMT
Nemo 1 is much like Darius. He has spells that buff jacks but I am not convinced that he does it better than his competitors. He has no feat and has a habit of falling over dead. I feel like you haven't even played the old man in MKiii. First, his spell kit is amazeballs. Threat extension, strength buff, area denial, ARM buff. The guy really has almost all the tricks. And I know I'm beating a dead horse here but if Voltaic Snare worked on beasts Nemo1 would be a top 3 caster in faction, even with his "sub-par" feat. His feat isn't very good but it's super baller in the matchups you want to play him in. Whether that's the current Ret stable or Cygnar, the feat is actually brilliant in the matchups you're taking Nemo1 into. It's a combination of Damage and Denial and shuts down some of Cygnar's most problematic counters. Like "Oh, I see you brought Caine3 to a Nemo fight. You lose." Lastly, and this is why I think you haven't played the old man in MKiii, he's really survivable. He's 14/15 and can increase his control area. He has Decel, which affects jacks in MKiii as well as himself. Against the best of gunlines I'll put Arcane Shield on him, making him 14/20 against shooting and camping 3 or 4. He doesn't have any reason to show his face ever, he can do everything he needs to do from wwwaaayyyy far back. Nemo's pathetic 14/15 statline is shockingly resilient into even the best gunlines. I've played him into Lilly3, Caine3, Sloan, Helynna and I never worry about losing him. I have played him in mk 3, there is no need to be so confrontational. Saying that his 14/15 is survivable because of arcane shield misses that almost any cygnar caster can have arcane shield up to no ill effect. Also, while he can camp 3 to 4 his spells are often quite inefficient. If you fully load a Heavy and locomote it forward and cast decel you are now are now at 2 to 3 focus, that is simply doing what you want for a single jack. Nothing else. Just buffing stat's by +2 or 3 aren't really "tricks" to me. Reposition and admo are tricks, stat buffs are just that. Nemo *can* buff single models well, but his lack of ability to control the table apart from rocketing one model per turn is limited. Voltaic snare is an OK spell at best. No running or charging limits some threat but it's not like it shuts everything down. When you are facing 8 to 10 marauders it's not fantastic because you can only cast it once and with Karchev their walking threat is up to 8" still. Vs colossals it just forces them to use their guns which they generally want to do anyway. Meanwhile you need an arc node to get value out of this which means either a lancer (who is ok, it doesn't directly contribute to the fight) or a Hurricane (who brings his own meta problems. Saying that nemo is resilient against a bunch of casters seems to not scan? Vs Caine 3 nemo camping 3 with armour 20 dies 50% of the time to Caine 3s unit and a single charger. Sure, you can be out of threat, but so can any other caster. Vs lylith 3 you shouldn't get armour 20, due to naga. If you are camping 3 you die 10% of the time, but lyliths assassination was never about her personal ability to kill its about getting other attacks onto a stationary caster while out threating your army with legion heavies. Vs kara at arm 20 on feat turn you die to kara alone and a single hunter 50% of the time. Feel free to run these numbers through odds machine, nemo isn't uniquely resilient compared to other cygnar casters. So far all you have done is told me that nemo 1 has spells and then said that makes him good. I need you to prove why this makes him better than his competitors and why this is important if you want to keep up this discussion as so far I'm not convinced.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Sept 22, 2017 0:21:29 GMT
Brickhouse shines in a meta with lots of 1" reach jacks and beasts, against infantry or reach opponents its relative merit sinks faster than our hopes and dreams for mk3 did a brick. A brick. Does he shine against those? Either you are charging in and hopefully killing those models or you are running to engage. Due to his ability to just die to another set of models charging him I don't find force grip to be all that valuable. Compare to a centurion who is very resilient to dying to backline models as well as the model he is in melee with.
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Post by darkangeldentist on Sept 22, 2017 0:48:03 GMT
Brickhouse shines in a meta with lots of 1" reach jacks and beasts, against infantry or reach opponents its relative merit sinks faster than our hopes and dreams for mk3 did a brick. A brick. Does he shine against those? Either you are charging in and hopefully killing those models or you are running to engage. Due to his ability to just die to another set of models charging him I don't find force grip to be all that valuable. Compare to a centurion who is very resilient to dying to backline models as well as the model he is in melee with. Kraye has a hard-on for Brickhouse that's almost embarrassing to talk about. Charge in, kill a bunch of stuff, then reposition to screw with more models. It's almost enough to make up for the sculpt.
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Post by Havock on Sept 22, 2017 0:53:50 GMT
Brickhouse shines in a meta with lots of 1" reach jacks and beasts, against infantry or reach opponents its relative merit sinks faster than our hopes and dreams for mk3 did a brick. A brick. Does he shine against those? Either you are charging in and hopefully killing those models or you are running to engage. Due to his ability to just die to another set of models charging him I don't find force grip to be all that valuable. Compare to a centurion who is very resilient to dying to backline models as well as the model he is in melee with. Eh, with curent terrain rules odds are your opponent is bunched up, but you, if something does get to you you are still only a Khador 'Jack light, anything half decent in melee can tear it a new one. Fine, it shines in battlebox games
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Sept 22, 2017 2:33:11 GMT
Does he shine against those? Either you are charging in and hopefully killing those models or you are running to engage. Due to his ability to just die to another set of models charging him I don't find force grip to be all that valuable. Compare to a centurion who is very resilient to dying to backline models as well as the model he is in melee with. Kraye has a hard-on for Brickhouse that's almost embarrassing to talk about. Charge in, kill a bunch of stuff, then reposition to screw with more models. It's almost enough to make up for the sculpt. I get the synergies, but I think that you will try it a few times and realise that a centurion is cheaper and more reliable for most of the jobs
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cain
Junior Strategist
Posts: 243
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Post by cain on Sept 22, 2017 5:16:36 GMT
I have tried brickhouse out of theme, and really liked him. What kill him in competetive lists for me is that he is not availeble in theme outside a sub par caster.
Nemo1 and Darius i would rate in the big pile of our second grade casters. Have never seen them in any tournaments in mrk.3, even though cygnar is bristling over here in europe. Never seen them in any competetive list on discount gaming or other place either. Cant see the reason why i would take one of those.
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Post by booggy on Sept 22, 2017 7:56:52 GMT
OctaviusMaximus: Your maths are correct about Nemo1 vs gunsline, but I think Snarlyyow was just saying that Nemo1 can shutdown for one round any jacks based gunline, which can be enough to definitely take the edge.... like : T1 everybody run, T2 Nemo1 feats (extending his Control Range if needed.. no ennemy jack is unreachable) to shutdown Chargers/Hunters/Defender/etc. and keeps pushing his army forward, and T3 Nemo1 army contacts opponent gunners or take scenario lead.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Sept 22, 2017 8:17:06 GMT
Kraye has a hard-on for Brickhouse that's almost embarrassing to talk about. Charge in, kill a bunch of stuff, then reposition to screw with more models. It's almost enough to make up for the sculpt. I get the synergies, but I think that you will try it a few times and realise that a centurion is cheaper and more reliable for most of the jobs One advantage of Brickhouse is that he completely shuts down stuff like Admonition, Enliven and Stumbling Drunk
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Post by Aegis on Sept 22, 2017 10:15:26 GMT
I get the synergies, but I think that you will try it a few times and realise that a centurion is cheaper and more reliable for most of the jobs One advantage of Brickhouse is that he completely shuts down stuff like Admonition, Enliven and Stumbling Drunk Sadly I'm with Octavius on this... Brickhouse has some great abilities, but they are all greatly situational. If planets align he is superb, but how often it happens? How many times you happen to fight with casters that have things like Admonition, Enliven or Stumbling Drunk, and they put the model with that ability into 9" from Brickhouse? 3% of the times? How many times you get the alpha with a 9" threat range jack, attack a thing with 1" threat range, and do not kill it with a POW 18 and a POW 15 weapon + extra attacks? 5% of the times? (and even then, how many times the opponent hasn't anything near the blocked jack that can charge Brickhouse and kill it to free the blocked model?) Even Carapace (who is a great ability), feels situational when the comparison is with a jack that costs less, cannot be charged and has +2 ARM against anything instead of +4 against shooting. In general, a Centurion feels a lot more reliable than Brickhouse. His tricks aren't that devasting, but they work almost always. I think that if you had to chose during a game if tricks you needed were Centurion's or Brickhouse's in a date moment, 90% of the times you would take the Centurion. If you then add that Brickhouse isn't included in any theme, and it's bonded to a caster that doesn't really synergize with it (if he was Kraye's or Jakes2's jack, then the chances to applicate his tricks would be far higher), I don't feel any compelling reason to buy it (and repose it).
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Sept 22, 2017 10:20:25 GMT
One advantage of Brickhouse is that he completely shuts down stuff like Admonition, Enliven and Stumbling Drunk Sadly I'm with Octavius on this... Brickhouse has some great abilities, but they are all greatly situational. If planets align he is superb, but how often it happens? How many times you happent to fight with casters that have things like Admonition, Enliven or Stumbling Drunk, and they put the model with that ability into 9" from Brickhouse? 3% of the times? How many times you get the alpha with a 9" threat range jack, attack a thing with 1" threat range, and do not kill it with a POW 18 and a POW 15 weapon + extra attacks? 5% of the times? Even Carapace (who is a great ability), feels situational when the comparison is with a jack that costs less, cannot be charged and has +2 ARM against anything instead of +4 against shooting. In general, a Centurion feels a lot more reliable than Brickhouse. This tricks aren't that devasting, but they work almost always. I think that if you had to chose during a game if tricks you needed were Centurion's or Brickhouse's in a date moment, 90% of the times you would take the Centurion. If you then add that Brickhouse isn't included in any theme, and it's bonded to a caster that doesn't really synergize with it (if he was Kraye's or Jakes2's jack, then the chances to applicate his tricks would be far higher), I don't feel any compelling reason to buy it and repose it. If I ever wanted to play Maddox properly I would buy Brickhouse, Assail increases his threat, the feat increases his damage, unfortunately I find Maddox insufferably boring (not bad, just boring).
Depending on how prevalent the Hooch Hauler becomes I might re-visit Maddox and Brickhouse, until then I am just going to endlessly complain that he is not Kraye's Character Jack
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Post by Aegis on Sept 22, 2017 10:31:07 GMT
If I ever wanted to play Maddox properly I would buy Brickhouse, Assail increases his threat, the feat increases his damage, unfortunately I find Maddox insufferably boring (not bad, just boring).
Depending on how prevalent the Hooch Hauler becomes I might re-visit Maddox and Brickhouse, until then I am just going to endlessly complain that he is not Kraye's Character Jack
If PP just put him in the list for Heavy Metal (who is more "Heavy" and "Metal" than a "Brickhouse" made of "Metal"? ) a lot of things would be resolved. That said, I still think that he is killed too easyly in melee. He has the same exact defensive stats and boxes of our cheapest jack (Hammersmith), it's not particulary good for a 18 point character. They could at least raise his ARM by 1 or consider his fist arm a Buckler (pretty much as Ol'Rowdy fist arm does). That way he would compare a lot better with the cheaper Centurion.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Sept 22, 2017 10:38:27 GMT
If I ever wanted to play Maddox properly I would buy Brickhouse, Assail increases his threat, the feat increases his damage, unfortunately I find Maddox insufferably boring (not bad, just boring).
Depending on how prevalent the Hooch Hauler becomes I might re-visit Maddox and Brickhouse, until then I am just going to endlessly complain that he is not Kraye's Character Jack
If PP just put him in the list for Heavy Metal (who is more "Heavy" and "Metal" than a "Brickhouse" made of "Metal"? ) a lot of things would be resolved. That said, I still think that he is killed too easyly in melee. He has the same exact defensive stats and boxes of our cheapest jack (Hammersmith), it's not particulary good for a 18 point character. They could at least raise his ARM by 1 or consider his fist arm a Buckler (pretty much as Ol'Rowdy fist arm does). That way he would compare a lot better with the cheaper Centurion. Yeah having him in Heavy Metal would appease me, Zuriel and Azreal are allowed in Children of the dragon, and Triumph in Gravediggers, so there is a precedent
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Post by jisidro on Sept 22, 2017 11:11:39 GMT
The precedente was set, amongst a few others, Thunderhead in Heavy Metal...
Also, I don't think the #1 theme in Cygnar needs to have a shutdown tool added to it.
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