Help Me With My Next Steamroller - Bucher 3 and Karchev

Armchair Warrior
The Sky Fell

Posts: 1,354

Help Me With My Next Steamroller - Bucher 3 and Karchev Mar 19, 2017 23:07:38 GMT

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Post by Armchair Warrior on Mar 19, 2017 23:07:38 GMT

I'm playing in a local tournament next Saturday. My list pairing has been Karchev & Butcher 3, and I don't want to change up the mix but to want to adjust my lists. I've been winning about half my tournament games, locally and regionally (3-2 at CaptainCon).

Locally, we have a bit of everything except for CoC. My biggest concerns are (a) not clocking myself out, (b) Wormwood, and (c) Zaal1/Zaal2 dudespam from an incredibly skilled player. I should probably add JVM (he moved here recently) to my list of problems, but problems have solutions and the solution here would be "play better" which really isn't practical advice you can get on a forum.

In my pairing, I plan to drop Karchev into anything that doesn't completely freak out Karchev and a bus full of warjacks. Butcher should handle everything else. I'd put WW in the Karchev column, and Zaal dudespam - and weaponmaster dudespam and jack hate in general - in the Butcher column.

I've been playing Karchev in theme with 7 jacks and winterguard support, but am wondering whether the advance moves are really worth what you give up. In terms of my playstyle, I generally prefer putting up Road to War on turn 1, and then relying on some ranged support on turn 2 to start the RTW chain. I'd like to try going to 8 jacks for this upcoming tournament and have 3 potential builds in mind. All of them have 2 Kodiaks because (a) I own 2 Kodiaks, and (b) my LGS plays with a lot of terrain.

* 1. Karchev's 8th Kommand - 2 Kodiaks, 3 Juggernauts, 3 Marauders, 2 Mortars, 1 Mechs (min). This gives me 2 advance moves. I park the Mortar's behind Karchev for sac pawn and either shoot squishy support or whatever the Marauders hit.

* 2. Karchev's Krazy 8 - 2 Kodiaks, 2 Juggernauts, 3 Marauders, Behemoth. Behemoth parks next to Karchev and uses the Bombards until late game. Mostly I wanted to prove to myself that I could fit Behemoth in a list with 8 jacks, and then I did, and like the result. I think I'd look at this as an opponent and say, "Holy crackamolie, how did you fit in 8 jacks...with Behemoth!" I don't love the lack of repair tech.

* 3. Karchev's Lucky 8 Ball - 2 Kodiaks, 2 Juggernauts, 2 Marauders, 2 Destroyers, Orin, Gobber. I'm using the Destroyers as my ranged tech. I like symmetry, and deployment is simple... Karchev in the middle, and a full four pack on each side. I haven't put Orin in with Karchev before, but I have found the only way he really dies is if you get an -2 ARM spell on him. Heck, maybe I could even drop this into Haley double stormwall... (Eat THAT, TK!)

For Butcher, I've been playing him in theme. This is what I brought to CaptainCon.

**Butcher's Blitzkrieg**

Kommander Zoktavir, the Butcher Unleashed - WJ: +22
- War Argus
- War Dog - PC: 3
- Ruin - PC: 17 (Battlegroup Points Used: 17)
- Kodiak - PC: 13 (Battlegroup Points Used: 5)
- Kodiak - PC: 13
- Juggernaut - PC: 12

Kovnik Jozef Grigorovich - PC: 4
Kovnik Andrei Malakov - PC: 4
- Juggernaut - PC: 12

Winter Guard Rifle Corps - Leader & 5 Grunts: 8
- Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2
- Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2
- Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2
Winter Guard Mortar Crew - Gunner & Grunt: 0
Winter Guard Mortar Crew - Gunner & Grunt: 5

Turn 1, I advance move the Kodiaks and Malakov's Juggernaut, put Redline up, use Energizer, and run everything. It's hilarious. If I go first, the Kodiaks end up 23" up field, and the Juggernaut is at 25".

What I don't love about this build is the Riflecorp don't work against high ARM targets... Beasts in general, Immortals (especially at +2 ARM). Also, there's no Marauder so the Mortars are just drifting, and if I'm teching against Skorne I'm worried about blast immunity.

In theme, I have this alternative. I own 3 more rockets, and could do 2 min units of either WGI or WGRC, but I listed clocking out as one of my chief concerns and in a practice run with Vlad and all the rockets I really struggled to not clock out.

**Butcher's Kommand**
Kommander Zoktavir, the Butcher Unleashed - WJ: +22
- War Argus
- War Dog - PC: 3
- Ruin - PC: 17 (Battlegroup Points Used: 17)
- Kodiak - PC: 13 (Battlegroup Points Used: 5)
- Kodiak - PC: 13
- Juggernaut - PC: 12

Kovnik Jozef Grigorovich - PC: 4
Winter Guard Rifle Corps - Leader & 9 Grunts: 13
- Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2
- Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2
- Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2
Winter Guard Infantry - Leader & 9 Grunts: 10
- Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2
- Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2
- Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2
- Winter Guard Infantry Officer & Standard - Officer & Standard: 0

In terms of clock, I think I can handle two big units...mostly, I just start using CRAs. The Rockets and WGI are great against Skorne in particular, and I like the POW 12 sprays just in case I'm running into anti-stealth, Irusk 2, or the like.

Out of theme, I have this build. It's the same jack package as the Kommand set-up. It has good anti-infantry hate with the Widowmakers and Eliminators, some butcher-delivery-system support with Orin and a Bokur (I don't own 2 Bokur), and with 7 points left I put in Eiryss.

**Butcher's Black Ops**

Kommander Zoktavir, the Butcher Unleashed - WJ: +22
- War Argus
- War Dog - PC: 3
- Ruin - PC: 17 (Battlegroup Points Used: 17)
- Kodiak - PC: 13 (Battlegroup Points Used: 5)
- Kodiak - PC: 13
- Juggernaut - PC: 12

Orin Midwinter, Rogue Inquisitor - PC: 5
Ogrun Bokur - PC: 5
Ragman - PC: 4
Eiryss, Mage Hunter of Ios - PC: 7

Kayazy Eliminators - Leader & Grunt: 5
Kayazy Eliminators - Leader & Grunt: 5
Widowmaker Scouts - Leader & 3 Grunts: 8

So... help me think about how to pair up my lists! Thanks!!!

Netherby
The Sky Fell

Posts: 1,022

Help Me With My Next Steamroller - Bucher 3 and Karchev Mar 20, 2017 12:34:53 GMT

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Post by Netherby on Mar 20, 2017 12:34:53 GMT

So in regards to Karchev, I think he gets a lot out of being in theme. While running Kodiaks should get you enough scenario presence to not get shut out, it really forces your hand and I'm not sure it's enough? Personally I feel if you're running him outside theme then you should take some cheap infantry along to contest and screen.

kommandantgrizzwar
Demo Gamer

Posts: 10

Help Me With My Next Steamroller - Bucher 3 and Karchev Mar 20, 2017 13:06:31 GMT

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Post by kommandantgrizzwar on Mar 20, 2017 13:06:31 GMT

I have pretty much given up on Karchev. I have played him a ton and outside of my local meta, he gets thrashed. So many people are tech-ing for armor cracking now a days. I love him and really want him to work but maybe he is better with a more balanced list i dont know. I just got tired of running him and have moved on.

Netherby The Sky Fell Posts: 1,022	Help Me With My Next Steamroller - Bucher 3 and Karchev Mar 21, 2017 5:59:38 GMT Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by Netherby on Mar 21, 2017 5:59:38 GMT I think he needs to run with some infantry.

KingoftheNorth
Got a Battle Box

Posts: 35

Help Me With My Next Steamroller - Bucher 3 and Karchev Mar 22, 2017 14:11:26 GMT

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Post by KingoftheNorth on Mar 22, 2017 14:11:26 GMT

Mar 20, 2017 13:06:31 GMT kommandantgrizzwar said:

I have pretty much given up on Karchev. I have played him a ton and outside of my local meta, he gets thrashed. So many people are tech-ing for armor cracking now a days. I love him and really want him to work but maybe he is better with a more balanced list i dont know. I just got tired of running him and have moved on.

Don't give up, he's still amazing

WTC Canada 2018 - Team Beaver

Twitter.com/Kingofthe_North

kommandantgrizzwar
Demo Gamer

Posts: 10

Help Me With My Next Steamroller - Bucher 3 and Karchev Mar 23, 2017 13:46:36 GMT

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Post by kommandantgrizzwar on Mar 23, 2017 13:46:36 GMT

Mar 22, 2017 14:11:26 GMT KingoftheNorth said:

Mar 20, 2017 13:06:31 GMT kommandantgrizzwar said:

I have pretty much given up on Karchev. I have played him a ton and outside of my local meta, he gets thrashed. So many people are tech-ing for armor cracking now a days. I love him and really want him to work but maybe he is better with a more balanced list i dont know. I just got tired of running him and have moved on.

Don't give up, he's still amazing

Jaws of the Wolf may breath some new life into him along with Forge Seers!

sand20go
The Sky Fell

Posts: 2,251

Help Me With My Next Steamroller - Bucher 3 and Karchev Mar 27, 2017 16:01:42 GMT Armchair Warrior likes this

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Post by sand20go on Mar 27, 2017 16:01:42 GMT

Here is an option for your butcher list. I REALLY like it. So far its three losses in MK3 have been against Caine3 twice (boo).

Butcher
Ruin
Kodiaks x2
Devestator
Maddy

Orin
Ragman
Bokur
Eliminators
Widowmaker Marksman
Widowmakers
Kell

THe sniper corp (I am considering removing Kell so I can add a second bokur - see losing to Caine 3 ;-) is there for one purpose - shooting out sentinals and other high ARM weaponmasters that the rifle corp can struggle with. You CAN kill those sentinals but it is hard. The Widows take care of that. They can also start to scaple out cortexes, another threat to Butcher. You have the devestator and eliminators there for going over to the "opposite zone" and contesting while Butcher does what he is supposed to - clear crap like a champ.

Its main issues are.....

A) Dude spam. You can get overwhelmed if they have mechanics that keep the dudes safe/recursion. Not fully tested against that but you should think about it.
B) Shooting. The way to defeat the voltron list is to look to remove Butcher at Range _IF_ they have a way to deal with the Kodiak's clouds (see Caine3).

When the Forge Seers come out I may grab at least 1 (if not two) and rework things (POSSIBLY giving up the girl of my dreams - Maddy). The reason is that the way this list plays is that the clam jack can quickly find itself out of Butchers measly control range. Have a Forge Seer around to give that one critical focus to the devestator so it can charge, slam, run, and get the bulldoze benefit can be REALLY helpful since your opponent will try to flood Butchers scoring area.

I am not sure it is going to be great in SR 2017 but it definately works well right now.

Last Edit: Mar 28, 2017 18:09:49 GMT by sand20go

Armchair Warrior The Sky Fell Posts: 1,354	Help Me With My Next Steamroller - Bucher 3 and Karchev Mar 28, 2017 2:00:56 GMT Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by Armchair Warrior on Mar 28, 2017 2:00:56 GMT I love that you are able to fit Ruin twice in your list. Glorious.

sand20go The Sky Fell Posts: 2,251	Help Me With My Next Steamroller - Bucher 3 and Karchev Mar 28, 2017 18:09:33 GMT Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by sand20go on Mar 28, 2017 18:09:33 GMT Mar 28, 2017 2:00:56 GMT Armchair Warrior said: I love that you are able to fit Ruin twice in your list. Glorious. LOL. The problem of doing from memory ;-) Fixed ;-)

Armchair Warrior The Sky Fell Posts: 1,354	Help Me With My Next Steamroller - Bucher 3 and Karchev Mar 28, 2017 18:32:09 GMT Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by Armchair Warrior on Mar 28, 2017 18:32:09 GMT No, really, I likes your list better with Ruin in it twice!!! Don't you find that you're really missing the second unit of Eliminators?

potato
Mangled Metaler

Posts: 48

Help Me With My Next Steamroller - Bucher 3 and Karchev Mar 28, 2017 18:56:59 GMT

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Post by potato on Mar 28, 2017 18:56:59 GMT

Have you considered the Jaws of the Wolf Theme for Butcher3? You could try the following, based on your list above:

Butcher 3 (22)
Ruin - 17
Kodiak - 13
Kodiak - 13
Behemoth - 25
Rager - 11
War Dog - 0

Widowmaker Scouts - 8
Kayazy Eliminators - 5
Mechaniks Max - 5 (Or another unit of Eliminators)

Marksman - 0
Forge Seer - 0 (Or Officer attachment to Mechaniks)

sand20go
The Sky Fell

Posts: 2,251

Help Me With My Next Steamroller - Bucher 3 and Karchev Mar 28, 2017 19:51:36 GMT

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Post by sand20go on Mar 28, 2017 19:51:36 GMT

Mar 28, 2017 18:32:09 GMT Armchair Warrior said:

No, really, I likes your list better with Ruin in it twice!!!

Don't you find that you're really missing the second unit of Eliminators?

So far not.

When I was fine tuning the list the question I had problems with were Sentinals. They were just too brutally difficult to remove with POW guns when they started to stack armor through the roof. I took a look at the rest of things and found a decent number of those weapon masters that didn't want to see snipers. They really are the main threat to the list BECAUSE what you don't want to do is have your jacks get eaten by them. If that happened you had to use Butcher to eat the weaponmasters and then their jacks would eat butcher.

Now the snipers also let me feed stuff into the other zone. That is key - either to CONTEST or, even better, Score. That is also what the clam jack is there for as well - but he can get slammed/pushed/TK'ed out and thus the extra eliminators on that duty. They can, of course, hurt things as well but their main job is to help get butcher's scoring pace up.

I find the eliminators good but not great. The key is how MK3 changes back arcs. At least with the level at which I play it isn't that hard with a reach 1 model (even better reach 2) to find a way to get around the elminator into their back arcs. Def 15 is still "good" but not Def 17 annoying. I often lose at least 1 that way.

sand20go
The Sky Fell

Posts: 2,251

Help Me With My Next Steamroller - Bucher 3 and Karchev Mar 28, 2017 20:01:20 GMT

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Post by sand20go on Mar 28, 2017 20:01:20 GMT

Mar 28, 2017 18:56:59 GMT potato said:

Have you considered the Jaws of the Wolf Theme for Butcher3? You could try the following, based on your list above:

Butcher 3 (22)
Ruin - 17
Kodiak - 13
Kodiak - 13
Behemoth - 25
Rager - 11
War Dog - 0

Widowmaker Scouts - 8
Kayazy Eliminators - 5
Mechaniks Max - 5 (Or another unit of Eliminators)

Marksman - 0
Forge Seer - 0 (Or Officer attachment to Mechaniks)

Hmmm....no.

Losing Maddy is HUGE. The reason is that in the end game the one thing that can kill butcher as he scenario bullies is the enemy caster. Maddy in most instances shuts that down HARD because almost all (I need to make a list) of warcaster/warlocks are warrior models. Keep her alive and I don't know what they are to do in the end game if you have done your job and eliminated all the jacks.

You also are losing Orin. While Ruin also has spell hate I really want him to go kill Jacks. Now if he can hang out near Butcher great but I don't want that to be the first option. Plus Orin is simply FANTASTIC when you can run Kodiaks 10/12 inches, zap one in the back, and leap to annoying solos. I have killed E1 at least twice that way. Very swan like ;-)

Ragman just helps butcher out so much. Yeah. Pow 18/16 vs. 18/20 doesn't SOUND like a lot but you really want to minimize the number of flashing blades you have to buy when you suck in his whole army. Even getting 1-2 more focus saved helps a LOT from getting Butcher subsequently shot off the board.

Finally, the Devestator is there for a specific purpose - at 14 points he is simply FANTASTIC in contesting or being annoying. Lets not even discount the joys of rain of death (won 2 games that way) on casters. Removing him requires RESOURCES - resources that are NOT going into Ruin or the 2 Kodiaks (or Butcher). That makes clearing the zone of my choice that much easier.

I love behemoth and I think I used him for a while in the list. While GREAT he really wasn't getting the work done that I couldn't get done with Butcher as well. But given that the theme shuts down AD I might try him again as above - so good when you are playing the scenario game to shove those models even FURTHER back.

What I need to start doing with this list as I continue to work on perfecting my play with it is start to always go second (or at least work out which scenario I will want that choice). Since it is all about scoring I want to figure out which is best for pacing and which is not.

Armchair Warrior The Sky Fell Posts: 1,354	Help Me With My Next Steamroller - Bucher 3 and Karchev Mar 28, 2017 21:35:38 GMT Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by Armchair Warrior on Mar 28, 2017 21:35:38 GMT Sand, have you tried dropping the Elims to Marshall one of the jacks under Malakov? Crazy idea?

sand20go
The Sky Fell

Posts: 2,251

Help Me With My Next Steamroller - Bucher 3 and Karchev Mar 28, 2017 21:47:07 GMT

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Post by sand20go on Mar 28, 2017 21:47:07 GMT

Mar 28, 2017 21:35:38 GMT Armchair Warrior said:

Sand, have you tried dropping the Elims to Marshall one of the jacks under Malakov? Crazy idea?

I haven't. I just am not sure I need to. Red Line is fantastic but this is all about ARM 20, 32 boxes and the challenge of chewing through it efficiently. But he would provide a magic shot (good) and could really fuel up say a Demolisher. May try at some point.

Plus suckering into Argus always the BEST THING EVER

Help Me With My Next Steamroller - Bucher 3 and Karchev

Post by Armchair Warrior on Mar 19, 2017 23:07:38 GMT

Post by Netherby on Mar 20, 2017 12:34:53 GMT

Post by kommandantgrizzwar on Mar 20, 2017 13:06:31 GMT

Post by Netherby on Mar 21, 2017 5:59:38 GMT

Post by KingoftheNorth on Mar 22, 2017 14:11:26 GMT

Post by kommandantgrizzwar on Mar 23, 2017 13:46:36 GMT

Post by sand20go on Mar 27, 2017 16:01:42 GMT

Post by Armchair Warrior on Mar 28, 2017 2:00:56 GMT

Post by sand20go on Mar 28, 2017 18:09:33 GMT

Post by Armchair Warrior on Mar 28, 2017 18:32:09 GMT

Post by potato on Mar 28, 2017 18:56:59 GMT

Post by sand20go on Mar 28, 2017 19:51:36 GMT

Post by sand20go on Mar 28, 2017 20:01:20 GMT

Post by Armchair Warrior on Mar 28, 2017 21:35:38 GMT

Post by sand20go on Mar 28, 2017 21:47:07 GMT