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Post by khador247 on Mar 17, 2017 13:36:02 GMT
In MKII Mercs/Minions were staples in my Khador lists. Boomhowler & Co, Nyss Hunters, Aiyana & Holt, Eiryss2, Gorman, Saxon, Corbeau, Versh, Kell, Tinker, Ragman, Sylys, Midwinter and Bokur were all frequent in my lists.
As I examine the landscape of MKIII things seem to have changed. There seem to be two issues affecting things 1. more friendly faction spells (less friendly) in MKIII 2. point cost issues 3. reduced effectiveness of certain models after rules changes. I'll look at each of these on their own.
More friendly faction spells. The big one for us here is Iron Flesh. I used it a lot with Nyss Hunters in MKII to take them from DEF 15 to 18. The die to a stiff breeze but for anything that had to directly hit them DEF 18 was crazy good. Fast forward to MKIII where they get dropped from DEF 15 to 14 and the only way you can put Iron Flesh on them is to take Valachev. Unfortunately he's 4 points on top of an already crazy expensive 19 point unit.
Point cost. I already used the Nyss Example. However, 17 for Boomy doesn't feel like a good deal to me. 8 pts for A&H doesn't seem like a good deal either after the nerf to Kiss. Both version of Eiryss are really expensive at 6 & 7. The 4 pt solos aren't bad but even then I feel like I really have to justify those points in my lists.
Reduced effectiveness after rules changes. Aiyana's Kiss is friendly faction now. Boomy can't give out 4+ tough anymore and tough ain't what it used to be anyhow. Eiryss2's upkeep removal ain't what it used to be since the caster can negate it. She also can't deny focus to warjacks just by being near them anymore. Gorman's blinding effect is shakable. Corbeau doesn't give your caster a 3 inch move anymore. Note, not all models got nerfed. Some got better. For instance I would say that Midwinter & Eiryss1 have stronger rules than before.
I can see myself taking niche solos from time to time but certainly not like MKII. I have a hard time seeing myself taking Merc units much at all. If it comes to pass that I start running into a lot of incorporeal stuff then sure I can take A&H. Boomhowlers don't seem worth it as they can't tarpit like they used to. I like the spell denial but miss the -2 to attacks that he used to grant. Nyss Hunters don't seem worth it to me anymore especially with the WGRC + rockets + Joe package being as good as it is.
Is this your experience as well or are you still feeling the love for the sell swords? If so, what is working well for you. |
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wendan
Junior Strategist
Posts: 785 
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Post by wendan on Mar 17, 2017 13:38:46 GMT
Admittedly I never took them a lot to begin with! So far, the only merc I have taken in mark 3 was Sylys with Z2, and that was only for one game.
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Growl
Junior Strategist
Posts: 496
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Post by Growl on Mar 17, 2017 14:44:59 GMT
Sylys and Reinholdt are still great, but of course it's dependent on which casters you take. Eiryss1 is really good, but a lot of points. The Gobber Tinker is great, especially when you are left with only 2pts. The Mercs/minion units are hard for me to justify squeezing in because as the OP mentioned many of our spells and abilities are Frielndly Faction... Since MK3, I have basically tried to figure out how to squeeze in Orin, Sylys/Reinholdt, a Tinker, Kell, Alten, Eiryss1 and/or Ragman in some combination into any of my lists. Some of their abilities work like force multipliers and are therefore very good. Aiyanna and Holt with Valchev are a great addition, but are too many points more often than not.
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Post by AdeptusB on Mar 17, 2017 16:48:28 GMT
In my (very limited) observations, only Merc Solos see much use in Khador now-a-days. Nyss, who were a common sight in MkII, are no longer an economical option compared to slightly-less-effective-but-much-cheaper in-Faction options.
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Post by Havock on Mar 17, 2017 22:15:50 GMT
I don't think warcaster attachments are really 'merc' options.
Kell or Harlan is you need some cheap ranged magical attacks, Saxon Orrik for Pathfinder.
Biggest problem is that Valachev is too expensive, or rather, makes whatever unit you attach him to, too expensive.
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Growl
Junior Strategist
Posts: 496
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Post by Growl on Mar 18, 2017 3:50:44 GMT
Eeep! How did I forget to mention Saxon? With regard to Harlan, I've never been able to get good use out of him? Most likely that is due to my playing him wrong, but nevertheless.
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Post by Netherby on Mar 18, 2017 6:04:34 GMT
Marc units without Valachev are not really an option. But to be fair, who took Nyss in Mk2 without Valachev any way? Zypher was totally worth the extra points and was needed to use things like Battle Lust. Nyss just aren't as good as they used to be and cost way too much.
We generally have a better unit option than we can get from a Merc unit any way. And of course unit spam isn't really a think for us in Mk3.
As for solos, they are still all really good. Wishy and Reinholdt pair well with most of our casters. I don't take Madelyn at all any more though.
Gorman is pretty meh, but Ragman, Kell, Saxon, Eyriss1, Harlen and the Bokur are all still great. Midwinter is amazing into various match ups. They do suffer from having niches that don't come up in every game, but you take them to cover a weakness in your list. Of course if you have a side board then they are all pretty great to be on it.
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Post by welshhoppo on Mar 18, 2017 10:17:55 GMT
Saxon is real good if you have doom reavers and don't have Fenris, because his pathfinder ability isn't a spell.
Generally I'll run at least a merc or two in my lists now. Kell is an amazing sniper, the Bokur is still our only real shield guard out of theme (Rager be damned) Orin is our only source of real anti magic, outside of Zerkova and Ruin once he is souled up.
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Post by borderprince on Mar 18, 2017 14:37:52 GMT
Lots of useful solos. Kell is great both for sniping generally, but also as a cheap magic weapon - very useful if you're worried your jack list might come across machine wraiths. Orin is essential in some lists, I think anything with a colossal and no Ruin wants him - you don't want stranglehold or an ARM debuff on a colossal. Reinoldt is great for anti-stealth duty. Like welshhoppo says, Saxon is mandatory for a Doomreaver list without Fenris.
As for merc units, I've got a Sorcha1 mostly ranged list that still still uses the Nyss Hunters (with and without Valachev). Expensive, but worth it in the specific list. Sorcha doesn't have friendly faction abilities, so doesn't care about the ranking officer rule. I think now she might be the only Khador caster who can benefit infantry in some way where that is the case. So if points are tight, Valachev can be dropped.
With Sorcha1 the Hunter rule means the Nyss ignore the effect of concealment from Fog of War, so in this list they are more accurate relative to other units (and have a high enough DEF to benefit from concealment too). 12" range is quite long for standard infantry weapons, combine it with Valachev's Zephyr to give them good skirmishing potential.
In Khador, unlike some other factions, we don't really have any combined arms units. So if you're only going to include one main unit, the Nyss have the benefit of flexibility. That works for me in the Sorcha1 list. However good the unit is at skirmishing, eventually there will be melee, and the Nyss aren't bad at it (unlike WG rifles). Once an enemy model has been damaged a bit by shooting, charging Nyss can often do enough damage to take it out. Their fairly average MAT/RAT can be helped by Sorcha too.
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Post by Netherby on Mar 19, 2017 5:38:20 GMT
Yeah, Orin is pretty much mandatory if you're taking a colossal.
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