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Post by The Trane on Aug 4, 2017 6:32:01 GMT
Gobber Chef backstabs a Wolf (YES!!!). Your opponent should have just conceded then and there. You'd already won the real victory We need a theme witch Chefs going FA: U. "Gobber Spam"? "Making spam"? "Spam Spam"?
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Post by Tenzilla on Aug 6, 2017 2:21:04 GMT
I feel like calaban needs a walker. I'm currently running him with 2 and a wrastler. 2 units of croaks is a lot, I honestly think you're better off with a single u it with occultation and a second vault. The vault is more accurate, hits harder, and has much more utility.
Telemetry becomes a huge deal when you add in a blind walker. Also the way calaban feat reads, you are able to arc and kill things far outside his control and still collect fury to continue the killing spree.
I've had calaban nuke an entire army on his feat turn with double walker double vaults. I've also used a vault to just run into telemetry range for assassinations.
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Post by Cryptix on Aug 6, 2017 2:52:27 GMT
I just can't use Croak Raiders over Brigands after having experienced killing a colossal with just one unit under parasite.
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Post by Gaston on Aug 6, 2017 4:22:31 GMT
I feel like calaban needs a walker. I'm currently running him with 2 and a wrastler. 2 units of croaks is a lot, I honestly think you're better off with a single u it with occultation and a second vault. The vault is more accurate, hits harder, and has much more utility. Telemetry becomes a huge deal when you add in a blind walker. Also the way calaban feat reads, you are able to arc and kill things far outside his control and still collect fury to continue the killing spree. I've had calaban nuke an entire army on his feat turn with double walker double vaults. I've also used a vault to just run into telemetry range for assassinations. I don't particularly disagree with any of your points. To counter: - Double Vaults -- Realistically I only own one and have little interest in investing the time/money in a second one, so probably not a route I will go down purely based on collection. Also with a fair number of things getting released for Gators in the next six months I can see the opportunities for dual Vaults diminishing. But if it works for you then go for it! I do love Telemetry.
- Blindwalker -- I generally want him, I just don't want to pay the points. Greedy, I know. I have run the Wrastler-Walker-Wrastler battle group and it did just fine. My issue is that the Wrastler with Calaban feels like a bit of a Catch 22. The Wrastler is a great beast, it has a great animus, a decent statline. But for all that the Wrastler gives, Calaban doesn't feel like he gives back. He offers no way to speed it up, no free charges, and Occultation is going to be elsewhere, so no way to prevent an opponent from removing it via ranged attacks. This limits the beastie to a 9" threat before terrain, and in a game of 12"+ melee threats being the norm that seems super rough. Conversely, relying on Parasite is not great when there exists some decent spell defenses like Midwinter, Choir, Sacred Ward Monkies, etc. The lack of projection is why I like the turtles with him, they have decent guns and Arm 22 versus ranged attacks is very strong in the current meta as well. It may well be that I have to run a Spitter/Walker/Spitter Oreo instead. I did look a bit at Spitter/Spitter/Walker/Wrastler, but that feels clunky. Both probably bear testing.
- I have yet to regret dual Croaks or dual Brigands. Parasite is a spell best leveraged by a large volume of attacks and they provide. Additionally both can swap from anti-infantry roles to anti-armor with relative ease. Losing 7 in one go to Harby was more player error than anything, if I had held them back another inch than the VoJ would not have gotten to them, then they could have killed the objective, worked on the Reckoner, etc.
So list building going forward, and trying to keep to theme, it comes down to battle group almost. I can either go the single croak/4 beast or the non-Wrastler Oreo and keep the dual Croaks.
Calaban, Blindwater -Spitter -Spitter -Blindwalker Vault Pendrake (free) Mist Speaker (free) Totem Hunter (free) Croak Raiders (max) Croak Raiders (max) Bokor and Shamblers
More bodies, more shennanigans, but also more dependency on Parasite. I suppose Totem Hunter could be a Witch Doc for tough Shamblers, but where is the fun in that? Shamblers are interesting in that they have 20 infantry to feed off of, can stationary a model for the Croaks, and accept Carnivore quite well (and Mist Speaker). Fully kitted out, each Shambler is Mat 8 Pow 11, then the Bokor is Mat 8, Pow 15 and can buy and boost damage ~5 times after the charge. Or they can be swapped out for Ambushing models to stretch the field a little.
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Post by Gaston on Aug 6, 2017 4:25:59 GMT
I just can't use Croak Raiders over Brigands after having experienced killing a colossal with just one unit under parasite. If Brigands stack Parasite and Prey then they rate ~60 damage on an Arm 19 colossal, most have 54-60 boxes. Croaks are about 20 damage behind that, doing 0.5 less per shot, losing one shot to Oil, and not having the extra two shots the Warlord adds. If the Brigands do not have Prey, they do about 30 damage (36 with Warlord). Basically, when playing against the Brigands, kill the Warlord and their single target output drops by half.
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Post by babadook on Aug 6, 2017 7:08:27 GMT
I did not know you were a defender of the Croaks over Brigands, too! I see that Brigands have their advantages, but they are so slight, that dropping the theme is probably not worth it in my experience.
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Post by Gaston on Aug 6, 2017 13:09:28 GMT
Defender is.......strong.
Croaks are cheaper and the theme stacks that even further. More I am not convinced that Croaks are that much worse than Brigands when the point difference when all added together. Given that SR17 encourages solos and they are seldom worth the points, getting them for free feels much more efficient.
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Post by Tenzilla on Aug 6, 2017 15:40:58 GMT
I wouldn't call croaks cheaper. Without the UA they are not. With the UA it's paying 2 pts really for 2 more ranged attacks and 2 granted abilities. It's a great bargain. I've ran out of theme with brigands and nyss for more board presence and some WM attacks plus parasite helps. I like the second vault.
As for the wrastler I keep him back near calaban, who is usually hiding behind/next to vaults and blind walkers. So whatever comes in to my vaults that doesn't die via soulstorm dies to the wrastler. So the lesser threat hasn't been an issue yet. He has been the counter punch and has forced colossals to sit back and shoot instead of committing to melee on my walkers and vaults.
Also I only own a single vault thankfully there are 4 other that never see play in my meta that I can borrow.
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vomath
BattleBox Champ
Posts: 53
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Post by vomath on Aug 7, 2017 16:14:37 GMT
I don't think you can quibble about the price difference between Croaks and Brigands. While it is technically legal to play the Brigands without their CA, you will almost never do so, and when we compare the two units it is going to be Croaks vs the full Brigand package. In that context Brigands are 19 points and Croaks are 17. One of them is cheaper. Now, you could say that the Brigands have extra value, or more wounds, or more shots per point, but they are objectively more expensive.
As an aside, I have often heard it stated that Prey can be played around, and that canny opponents will position to deny you access to your Prey target. However, I haven't found that to be very true. I have always selected Prey targets based on what I believe my opponent wants to move forward towards my Brigands. Usually, they're not willing to upend their own plans just to stymie Prey. They do, however, kill my Warlords. Oh my, do they kill them. I rarely actually take shots with the Warlords because they're leading from as far in the back as they can, but I still often have them sniped out.
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Post by Gaston on Aug 7, 2017 16:43:55 GMT
I wouldn't call croaks cheaper. Without the UA they are not. With the UA it's paying 2 pts really for 2 more ranged attacks and 2 granted abilities. It's a great bargain. I've ran out of theme with brigands and nyss for more board presence and some WM attacks plus parasite helps. I like the second vault. As for the wrastler I keep him back near calaban, who is usually hiding behind/next to vaults and blind walkers. So whatever comes in to my vaults that doesn't die via soulstorm dies to the wrastler. So the lesser threat hasn't been an issue yet. He has been the counter punch and has forced colossals to sit back and shoot instead of committing to melee on my walkers and vaults. Also I only own a single vault thankfully there are 4 other that never see play in my meta that I can borrow. I think of them as cheaper in two ways -- I don't often (ever?) take Brigands w/o the UA, so there is the 2 points there, and part of what I wanted to explore was the theme force. This was in large part because the Brigands were the only things not in theme in my lists (and I do agree that Brigands are stronger than Croaks). So the cost for me is 4 points from the spending difference, plus 8-12 points for 2 solos, or even 12-18 pts if you go with a build that allows for 3 solos. Losing 2" on deployment and 12-22 points makes the theme worth the consideration, IMO. Also Croaks and Brigands have nearly literally the same roles because design space, so the comparison is pretty straightforward. Lol, sadly all too often I have used my Vault to bait a heavy or colossal out as you describe. It is kinda a weird feeling to piece trade a huge base for a heavy. That was before they were more durable however, maybe I'll get lucky.
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Post by Gaston on Aug 8, 2017 0:45:46 GMT
Sigh, upon further reflection I may end up with Brigands anyway for the natural Pow 12 into Dark Host. Damn you Cryx.
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Post by Gaston on Aug 28, 2017 3:50:40 GMT
With the new CID cycle, it is back to the pig pile! I think I have kind of a funny approach to CID. We received a new theme force which is absolutely fantastic, and I have hardly thought about it at all. It’s pretty easy to port my previous lists into it, and it is already good, so nothing new really needed. The Valkyries however, I was very lukewarm on, so I have actually spent a lot of time thinking about how to apply them. When it came down to testing them, I knew that I wanted to flood the field with them, purely to get as many on the table as possible to see the maximum amount of interactions. Starting with 3 units of Valks, I searched around for a warlock who’d actually want them. I ended up settling on Helga for a pretty broad variety of reasons. I had previously surmised that while we all tend to run infantry heavy lists with her, her field marshal of Gang is criminally underused. Being able to swing a +4/+4 on warbeasts with Gang and Primal is Arkadius levels of absurd. I think the main reason she always ended up in plentiful pig pile style lists is because of themes; a lot of the good pieces for her are not allowed in Thornfall. WWFF on the other hand, allows for oodles of the solos she likes to see; Totem Hunter with Dash and Leap is great for nonlinear feat slam threats, Feralgeists are great Gang triggers, and Lanyssa both ups damage output with free charges and adds to threat range as well, as Helga has no method to extend it herself. As far as lessers go, I debated a lot between the big 3 before settling on Dahlia: she brings pathfinder into a list with none, Skarath is a very good Def Ward target, and the snake is a 4th Spray in a list that likes pop and drop assassinations. For a battle group I went full Road Hog, yeah baby! It is always sexy to drop in War Hogs, get them up to Pow 22, etc., but it feels like every time I put a War Hog in a list with Helga, one game later it magically transmutates into a Road Hog. So I just skipped to the end. Given that I generally want this list more towards a gunline, I think the Pow 19 Road Hogs will be able to crack the armor that I will encounter just fine. (A Road Hog with Primal, Lanyssa, and Gang is roughly 45 damage on Arm 19 if all attacks hit, which at Mat 10 seems likely). The general strategy of the list is loosely based on that of CoC’s Destruction Initiative: bringing 9 Shield Guards hits the saturation point where you are able to relatively safely escort your valuable heavies up the field. I took heavies that are fast and have various methods to make them hit hard enough to matter, and all my heavies have guns if I need to go for a feat assassination (which pretty much is how Helga wins all games for me). For infantry clearing I have 4 sprays, all have continuous effects, and the 9 Valkyries, under perfect circumstances (never gonna happen), can put out 21 Mat/Rat 7+ attacks all on their own to handle chaff infantry. Helga the Conqueror, Will Work for Food -Road Hog -Road Hog -Road Hog -Battle Boar -Battle Boar Dahlia -Skarath Feralgiest (free) Lanyssa Ryssyl (free) Swamp Gobber Chef Totem Hunter Farrow Valkyries Farrow Valkyries Farrow Valkyries Not my most elegant looking list unfortunately, but it’ll get the job done. I met up with Isotope for some weekend dice and requested that he bring a gunline style army, which he kindly obliged: Lord Arcanist Ossyan, Defenders of Ios -Harpy -Harpy -Hypnos -Sylys Arcanist Mechanik Arcanist Mechanik Fane Knight Skeryth Issyen (free) Lys Healer Heavy Rifle Team Heavy Rifle Team House Ellowuyr Swordsmen (max) -UA -Soulless Escort Stormfall Archers Stormfall Archers Arcantrik Force Generator He wins the roll off and opts to go first, making me sad indeed (I prefer going first into gunlines to give him less time to shoot me). Scenario is Spread the Net. Advance move on 3 Road Hogs, Skarath, and a Battle Boar. Ossyan Turn 1: Admonition on Hypnos, Quicken on Swordsmen; everything runs! Helga Turn 2: Dahlia puts up Mist Walker on Skarath and Haunting Melody on herself (the original goal being that later on I can Mist Walker her as well as Haunting Melody and contest his flag with nothing being able to attack her). Helga puts Def Ward on a Road Hog, Dash on herself. One Road Hog moves up and flames Skeryth, 2 damage. Skarath slimes Skeryth, 2 damage, puts up counterblast. Removing Issyen was somewhat important to me, as he was the only thing on that flank capable of removing the Feralgiest. Right flank Road Hogs spray down 1 Swordsmen. Totem toes a flag, everything else clusters up to Shield Guard. Did I forget to move Lanyssa? Yes, yes I did. Ossyan Turn 2: Skeryth takes a point of damage, yay! Swordsmen pop mini-feat, charge Skarath, 2 connect and do an annoying amount of damage, knocking out mind and body. Issyen charges in, survives the Counterblast bite (no mind), but bad damage dice thankfully leave Skarath alive. I needed to keep him further out of threat of the Swordsmen, very bad mistake on my part. Stormfalls take potshots at the Road Hog, some is Shield Guarded, some miss via Def Ward. Harpies and Hypnos bang up the other two Road Hogs, do approximately a ⅓ damage to each despite the Shield Guards, AFG tries to drift AoEs on Totem Hunter, but no luck. Helga Turn 2: Minimal vengeance moves due to Serpent’s Strike. Helga loses her mind and does some truly stupid things; she puts a boosted Distraction into the Swordsmen (miss), Cyclones up, eats 3 Defensive Strikes, kills 2 Swordsmen, and takes a free strike to walk back to behind the wall. After all that, she only took 3 damage, which was beyond stupid luck. Battle Boar 2 hand throws a Swordsmen into another. Def Ward Road Hog forces for speed, walks up and removes a HRT with the spray. Dahlia puts Mist Speaker on herself, heals Skarath 2, walks into the woods to gain Stealth and survives a defensive strike miss. Skarath dismounts and consumes Issyen and eats a few Swordsmen. Valkyrie unit is able to clear all but one of the right flank Swordsmen, Feralgiest tries the last one but misses. Other Valkyries charge the Stormfalls or run to engage, Assault shot kills one, redirected charge kills another. Left side, Totem Hunter advances, leaps behind two Swordsmen, kills, sprints behind building. Lanyssa grabs the flag. Road Hogs and Valks put 4 shots into a Harpy. Post fire it is down to just one health in cortex, curses. CP 1-1 Ossyan Turn 3: Arcanist Mechanik repairs the Harpy, boo. Lys Healer blows away fire from the Harpy. Ossyan moves up, feats, pops a shot into the Def Ward Road Hog that either misses or is Shield Guarded. No debuffing, bad elf. Swordsmen run/charge, one to try to kill a Valk to clear some Stormfalls, the Soulless toes the zone to contest; charge attack fails to kill. Stormfalls take the shots that they can, but between Def Ward, Shield Guards, and a couple being engaged they do not accomplish much. On the left side however, feat shots more or less blow away the Valks and both Road Hogs; despite trying to get clever with Shield Guard. CP 2-2 Helga Turn 3: Valk vengeance kills the Soulless and Swordsman in front of my remaining Road Hog. Helga feats, Cyclones, charges the Harby, kills it. She tries to apply Distraction to Ossyan, misses. Totem Hunter leaps into Ossy’s back arc, slams him into the Mechanik. Battle Boar gives out Primal. Feralgiest runs to trigger gang on Ossy. Road Hog forces for +2 Spd, walks in and finishes the game. Lessons Learned: A game of ups and downs, and lots of learning mistakes on my part. Particularly big was leaving Skarath so exposed, he could have easily been further back, possibly reducing the number of Swordsmen that could threaten him. With a sample size of one game, it is hard to tell, but a possible consideration for the list is dropping down to 1 Battle Boar and using the 8 points elsewhere. Red Nothing Orange Nothing Yellow: Valkyries: I came into this game pretty down on them. I was 100% wrong. They did an impressive amount of work preventing Ossyan from focus firing a heavy down too quickly, especially in the early rounds. I did eventually lose the two heavies on his feat turn, but a) it is an incredibly strong shooting feat, and b) I had left a Harpy on 1 health in cortex, probably the worst box to have left. Either 1 more damage or a different system, possibly a Road Hog would have made it through the barrage. Hard to say for sure. Additionally, I found the Valks to be very competent in combat when presented with targets that were in their wheelhouse--Swordsmen, Stormfall Archers, etc. I think it is safe to say without them I would not have been as successful in this game. All that being said, here are some points to consider: At their current rules level, I think that they are a point overcosted. Taking 3 units of them is a full quarter of my army invested in 9 infantry models whose literal job is leaping in front of bullets. This is an ability where the usefulness is vary from game to game, but also is something that a lot of armies get coincidentally. Sturm brings it as a field marshal, as does Lucant; Forges of War and Destruction Initiative also had out mass Shield Guarding as a benefit for free. If you consider Sacrifical Pawn to be comparable to Shield Guard, the list expands even more. When the price tag becomes high enough, it is far easier to just risk it and leave them at home, or take a caster such as Carver or Rask who already have strong tools into gunlines. Although they performed great in my game, statistically compared to comparable units their durability is questionable. When trying to see how Valkyries measure up, Warders, Visgoth Rhoven, and the Spears of Scyrah all come to mind. Warders clock in at 10 points for 3 models, generally are between Arm 19 and 21, 5 health. Visgoth Rhoven is 9 points for 3 models, the Shield Guard portion of which are Arm 16, but have 8 health. The Spears are a bit of an odd mix with such low armor, but when not Shield Guarding they have Stealth and Duelist, making them difficult to remove unless the controlling player chooses to sacrifice one. At Arm 17 5 boxes, the Valkyries have a difficult time standing in the presence of such company. Generally speaking, a boosted Pow 12 will force a tough check on one, and if they are safeguarding your heavies, then they are taking high value shots. I would consider making them 8 wounds instead of 5. This keeps their armor value from competing with Warders, but makes them more capable of requiring 2 hits to put down. This additional durability both fits into the posted design goals, and synergizes with Vengeance and Gang benefiting most from all 3 ladies being in play. It also makes them durable not just to gunfire, but charges as well, adding a zone holding dimension to their inclusion in lists. Another comparison to consider is the Gatormen Posse, in and out of theme. People were generally down on the Posse at 5 Wounds Arm 16 (18 engaged), but once they gained 3 health in Blindwater the ridiculous reptile rick reoccured in the meta. I fear the Valkyries may suffer a similar fate. Damage output: I have seen point blank suggested instead of assault; I think Point Blank is a very interesting suggestion, but also have no real issues with Assault. In my game I always tried to double engage so that I could succeed the charge, kill the target with the gun, and redirect on to a second target; it worked well. It does feel however that the spears are paying a Pow tax for Gang. To be honest though, if they became more focused on a single role, defense over offense, their current damage output would be fine. Please note, I am not suggesting all of these changes be done together, but three different directions to consider and explore that are interrelated to each other. I had a fantastic game with the Valkyries, but my fear is that I went into it with a list and match up designed around them rather than building them into a list designed to maximize a given caster and that is skewing my perception. Helga: Just a quick note on her, she has awesome offensive spells in Distraction and Muzzle that she chronically struggles to leverage. Some consideration for her in that area would be nice. It could be that Telemetry or the upcoming Puppet Strings may resolve this on its own, just thought worth mentioning. Given that Lynus and Edrea are in the Will Work for Food theme, it may be worth reconsidering their role as a support unit, given how Collaboration functioned in Mk2. Green Will Work for Food: This theme force feels exceptionally well thought out and implemented. I love that the benefits of the theme self synergize, with the free solos granting the beasts advance move, the juniors contributing both benefit points and counting as a solo for their own beast. The Overtake benefit is not overwhelmingly powerful as it is moderately already available in the faction, but exists to help give extra purpose to beasts such as Bone Swarms and Swamp Horrors who could use a bit of a nudge. The restrictions are limiting, but not oppressive. I would love to see more theme lists this well put together in the game, great, great job!
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Post by Gaston on Sept 5, 2017 1:58:43 GMT
Another long weekend, another chance to test out Valkyries some more. I was able to talk isotope into a couple more games after his big weekend at the NoVa Open! As per usual, I spammed the crap out of the Valkyries to test them, MAX FA IS ONLY FA!!!
Game #1:
Helga the Conqueror, Will Work for Food -Road Hog -Road Hog -Road Hog -Battle Boar -Battle Boar Dahlia -Skarath Feralgiest (free) Lanyssa Ryssyl (free) Swamp Gobber Chef Totem Hunter Farrow Valkyries Farrow Valkyries Farrow Valkyries
Same list as previously, nice to compare side by side.
Drake McBain, The One Merc Theme List -Galleon -Mangler -Mangler Choir (min) Errants (max) -UA Rhupert Carvolo Llael Gun Mages Gibbs Di Bray
Prey on Errants.
McBain Turn 1: Errants run up; McBain puts Countermeasures on di Bray, Fail Safe on Galleon. Everything runs up, di Bray is within 5” of the two Road Hogs to make my life difficult.
Helga Turn 1: Helga Cyclones, Advance, Distraction on Errants, shoots on, fails to break armor. Dahlia puts up Mist Walker on Skarath and Haunting Melody on herself. Skarath walks up and sprays 3 Errants, Road Hog sprays 3 Errants, Officer is allowed to die because he is on fire and corroded. Totem Hunters advances, leaps behind di Bray, kills her, sprints. Road Hogs run, Valkyries run.
McBain Turn 2: Thorn Gun Mages, Gibbs, Galleon put some shots into the Road Hog pile on the hill, dent up Totem Hunter and kill a Valkyrie. McBain casts Energizer, feats on remaining Errants. One Mangler goes into Skarath and takes him to half health, the other runs to look threatening. Errants run to make my life hell.
Helga Turn 2: Battle Boar moves up, throws an Errant into another, Primals Skarath. Dahlia heals Skarath and puts up Mist Walker again, moves into the zone. Skarath kills off the top Mangler. Helga moves up, casts Dash, Def Ward on herself, feats, and Primal on a Road Hog. The goal is to use the feat to clear charge lanes to the Galleon for both Road Hogs and for the other Road Hog to finish off the Mangler. I horribly, horribly misplay all of that. What ends up happening is that I cannot get a Road Hog to the right side Mangler, so just put in a boosted spray. The Road Hog I primaled and the other Road Hog cede the left flank and retreat to fight another day. Valkyries and Totem Hunter have fun playing bowling with his Errants, run to hide behind a wall and contest a zone. I hate it when a plan falls apart, but it is better to salvage what you can than dump more into a bad idea.
McBain Turn 3: Gibbs and the Thorn Gun Mages fail horribly to dislodge the Valkyries behind the left flank wall. Errants stand up and move to jam. Galleon puts a bunch of shots into the scrum with varying levels of effectiveness, the harpoon into a Road Hog is Shield Guarded. McBain moves and puts Fortune on the Mangler, then Jackhammers Skarath to death. Mangler then Threshers on Feralgiest, Battle Boar, and Valkyrie; killing another lady.
Helga Turn 3: Dahlia uses Charmer to cancel the Primal frenzy. Valkyrie Vengeance and activation makes short work of the remaining Errants. Feralgeist engages the Mangler, kills the final Errant. Totem Hunter moves Prey to the Mangler. Helga puts Primal on Battle Boar, Primal on Road Hog, swings twice on Mangler. Battle Boar with Primal and Gang finishes it off. Totem Hunter debates moving prey onto Galleon, puts it on Choir instead. Lanyssa puts Hunter’s Mark on Galleon. Battle Boar Primals Road Hog #2. Both Road Hogs charge for free, with Primal and Gang, leave the Galleon on one stinking health. Guess I shoulda put Prey on Galleon huh. CP 1-0.
McBain Turn 4: Fire does not kill Galleon, lol. Objective heals it for a couple. Choir move up to contest and battle. McBain uses 5 jack hammers to kill 1.5 Road Hogs. Galleon activates, sweeps, and kills a Valkyrie and Road Hog. CP: 1-0
We call the game at this point, as the Galleon is set to die from the 3rd Road Hog and we want the time to get another game in.
Game #2 I wanted to try a different list with Valks, so I adjusted my infantry heavy Midas list for them.
Midas, Thornfall Alliance -Gun Boar -Gun Boar -Gun Boar -Gun Boar Rorsh -Brine Hutchuck Efaarit Scouts Farrow Brigands (max) -Warlord Farrow Commandos (min) Valkyries Valkyries Valkyries
Magnus the Warlord, The Other Merc Theme -Mangler -Mangler -Mangler -Mangler -Renegade -Sylys Lady Aiyana and Master Holt pEiryss Rhupert Carvolo Kayazy Eliminators Kayazy Eliminators Idrian Skrimishers (max) -Chieftain and Guide
I win the roll and go second, Commandos Hambush. Brigands prey Idrians, Idrians return the favor.
Magnus Turn 1: Escort, run everything.
Midas Turn 1: Death March on Brigands, they advance and dig in. Two Gun Boars manage to drift over and kill the Idrian Chieftain. Oops!
Magnus Turn 2: Magnus puts Bullet Dodger on a Mangler, hides behind the house like a measly coward. Very un-Farrowly. Then the Manglers jam the bejeesus out of me. 3 Arm 21 heavies in my face. Everything else meanders to set up for the following turn.
Midas Turn 2: This is one not wonderful rubiks cube. Rorsh goes, Diversionary Tactic to move Brine into position. Brine does a two handed throw knocking one Mangler into another, taking care of Unyeilding and Bullet Dodger, buys two attacks. Commandos Ambush, kill 3 Idrians and toe the zone. Brigands go Hog Wild, hit the Mangler for a bit of damage, kill more Idrians. Gun Boar takes a free strike from an Idrian, puts a shot into a Mangler and kills that Idrian. Second Gun Boar does the same. Midas backs up, respects the kill box, and puts Battle Lust on two units of Valkyries. One unit goes in and finishes up both central Manglers. Left side Gun Boar takes a free strike, moves into the zone. Second Valkyrie unit goes and rips the arms of the left side Mangler. 3rd unit of Valkyries runs into the left zone to contest. Efaarit survives a free strike, pops a shot into the Mangler, moves into the zone. Gun Boar scratches at it.
Magnus Turn 3: Mangler, Kayazy, and Idrians are able to clear the few infantry in the right zone; Mangler also kills the objective. In one hit. Yikes. Eliminators kill the Efaarit. Aiyana and Holt work on the Valkyries. Renegade drops one of the two in the zone with the KD rocket, Mangus arcs Convection through it to clear the zone. He feats, I cannot move forward or to my right. CP 0-3
Midas Turn 3: Uggghhhhh….trying desperately to not lose on scenario to Magnus feat. Brine and 2 Gun Boars frenzy, don’t really do much. Hutchuck hits the Renegade with a Quake bomb, knocking it down and killing Holt with the blast damage. Gun Boar slips sideways to contest two zones, kills Aiyana and Eiryss with a shot. Far left Valkyrie runs into zone to contest. Middle Valkyries run away from Mangler (no arms) and contest as well. Rorsh comes up and puts some shots into the Renegade, not to much effect. Gun Boar that didn’t frenzy aims and kills 2 Idrians. Commando kills the final one, Prey moves to Mangler. Other Commandos put two damage on one of the Kayazys. Midas tries to Calamity the Mangler, misses, (#$%@!!!), puts Battle Lust on the Brigands. They Hog Wild into the Mangler, but just scratch the paint. At least everything is contested. CP 0-3
Magnus Turn 4: Mangler and Kayazy are able to clear the right zone, again. I did not do a great job positioning the far left Valkyrie and Kayazy get her. Renegade goes to slam the Gun Boar out of the zone, leaving just Hutchuck to survive a spray and Convection from Magnus, but rolls snake eyes. Phew!!! With that opportunity gone, Magnus slips backward, puts Bullet Dodger on himself. CP 0-4
Midas Turn 4: Ay carumba, almost game over right there. Hutchuck Rust Bombs the Renegade. Valks charge it. Rorsh brings Brine around, Brine kills the Renegade. Now free, the Gun Boar moves up and kills Sylys. 3 Valks run in to capture the middle zone. Midas finally manages to land a Calamity on the Mangler, moves centrally, heals beasts. Left Gun Boar finally manages to finish off the Mangler the hard way. Brigands shoot up the Manger some more, but it is the Gun Boar shot that rips off both of its arms. Other Gun Boar moves up to contest both zones. CP 1-4
Magnus Turn 5: Left Kayazy come in to mess with the Valkyries and Gun Boar and contest the central zone. On the right side, the crippled Mangler is unable to provide the Eliminators the help they need to clear the zone. CP 1-4.
Midas Turn 5: Brine frenzies, kills an Eliminator. Gun Boar frenzies, kills a Brigand. Left Gun Boar steps away from the Eliminator, kills her with blast. Midas puts Battle Lust on the Valkyries, they kill the objective. Gun Boar misses the Calamity Mangler, sigh, Brigand and Commando do what they can. Rorsh moves Brine into the zone to score it. Hutchuck kills an Elminator with blast damage. CP 4-4.
Magnus Turn 6: Mangler kills the final Brigand and Commando. Eliminator charges and kills Hutchuck, contests the middle. Magnus puts Bullet Dodger back on himself, charges and kills the Gun Boar, clearing the zone again. CP 5-5
Midas Turn 6: Midas moves up, Curses Magnus, hits with boosted Calamity, hits with unboosted Hex Blast (1 bone token), feats and brings back Gun Boar. One boosted Gun Boar shot and one unboosted Gun Boar shot the Warlord is down.
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Lessons Learned: Those were both really tough, grindy games. I like to think of the game as a puzzle to solve, and man my opponent gave me some mind benders. I was eventually able to dig myself out of mistakes and difficulties dealing with his strategies, but I am pretty sure I would have lost on time long before the game was over. But playing against hard matches is how you improve.
I feel like I have written several books on these models at this point, so will keep it short:
Yellow
-- Valkyries have turned out to be pretty solid, but still feel a point expensive. They are a bit of a pain to fit into lists, even those that I am expressly building to maximize them. Putting together the Midas list in particular was vexing, and I had to make a couple sacrifices with Helga as well. I really, really want to be able to put 3 units down on my Christmas list. My concern comes down to if they are a pain to get into lists, I’ll just run my traditional anti-gunline lists and strategies and leave them at home, which would be tragic. They are lady-pigs. With hammers. So cool.
-- Thornfall Alliance: Not in CID, but could use a quality of life once over. Ambushing Commandos is great, but lack of free character solos and middling infantry benefits make it difficult to opt for when compared to Will Work for Food, which is a much more focused theme.
Green
--Will Work for Food is great. I like that the theme knows it is focused on beasts with support. The Advance Move is really nice to help counter opponent’s advance deploy infantry. Overtake didn’t come up too much due to McBain’s feat, but the overall flexibility of what is allowed in the theme is greatly appreciated.
--Helga: The extra 2” on Distraction was much appreciated in this game.
--I noticed a couple of times where Assault would have proc'd when Point Blank did not on the Valkyries, but overall Point Blank is a great improvement.
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Post by Gaston on Oct 2, 2017 23:28:12 GMT
With Will Work for Food official, it was officially tournament time! I always seem to feel like I am knocking rust off or trying something new. Play time has been a bit crazy going from Valkyrie CID to Protectorate for videotaped play, back to Gator CID, and now a non-CID tournament. Both of these are lists that I really like on paper, but have had no real chance to play out. I got the Ark list off of Rickard and the Calaban from Sven Bex. Dr. Arkadius (Will Work for Food) -Targ -Battle Boar -Road Hog -Road Hog -War Hog -War Hog -War Hog Alten Ashley Efaarit Scouts Efaarit Scouts Orin Midwinter, Rogue Inquisitor Dahlia Hallyr -Skarath Swamp Gobber Bellows Crew Calaban the Gravewalker (Blindwater Congregation) -Ironback Spitter -Ironback Spitter -Blindwalker Sacral Vault Croak Raiders (max) Croak Raiders (max) Bog Trog Ambushers (min) Totem Hunter Viktor Pendrake Mist Speaker Gobber Chef ----------------------------- Round 1: Trollbloods Hunters Grim (Power of Dhunia) -Muggs and Krump -Trollkin Runebearer -Mountain King -Dire Troll Bomber -Dire Troll Bomber -Troll Axer -Stone Scribe Chronicler Troll Whelps Dhunian Knot Krielstone Bearer and Stone Scribes (min) -Stone Scribe Elder Swamp Gobber Chef I won the roll and naturally selected to go first. Ark Turn 1: Everything runs up, just shy of his shooting range, save one Road Hog hiding behind the building. Forced Evolution goes on the right flank War Hog who has to face down the Mountain King. Since this is a gunline, Arkadius puts up Aggravator. Dahlia Mist Walkers the Snake so it can run through the woods. Grim Turn 1: Dhunia puts Puppet Strings on Grim, KD dude, and Bomber. Grim moves up, hits the Road Hog behind the building with Mortality. Shoots him for damage. Trapper dude puts down trap. Puts one into the Stone. Axer puts Rush on the Bomber. Bomber wanders on up, snipes, hits the Road Hog behind the building twice, ay carumba. Thankfully Road Hog is alive (not by much), no healing, and missing his body. Everything else runs up, but gingerly. Whelps move into position to contest zones and make getting to the Mountain King annoying. Ark Turn 2: Aggressive feat time! Upkeep Forced Evo. Midwinter wanders up, blasts the two Whelps in my way. Battle Boar Primals the left War Hog. Ark moves very far forward, Primals the Road Hog and War Hog, feats them and the left War Hog forward. War Hog charges Mountain King does damage. Skarath moves up and sprays the shed Whelps out of the Road Hog’s way, Road Hog finishes the King off. I was pretty worried it wouldn’t happen until the Road Hog spiked a boosted damage roll, and had kept the sniper team’s activation in reserve just in case. Left War Hog forces for strength, rips up the Bomber. Sniper team activates and takes out the spirit in the remaining Bomber, no healing via Alten. Road Hog is gonna die anyway, so he moves up and takes out KD bro and the Chronicler via luck and boosting to get back to 2D6. So I feel while Arkadius is hella forward, his is relatively safe from assassination due to the KD guy being dead, the Bomber not being able to boost, and Orin being within 3” to cancel Mortality. Grim Turn 2: Dhunia put Puppet Strings on Grim, Moses, and the Bomber. Bomber comes up and kills my super injured Road Hog pretty easily. Axer pokes a War Hog. Krielstone gives the other War Hog something to frenzy on. Moses hits the War Hog with Mortality. Grim charges and takes out the spirit. Ark Turn 3: War Hog takes a free strike and backs off. Arkadius hits Grim with Crippling Grasp, Primals the Battle Boar. Midwinter puts a boosted staff shot into Grim. Alten shoots him too. Battle Boar walks up and throws him forward into the War Hog, Grim dies. Lessons Learned: I think the match-up was a really good one for me, and showed the strengths of this list really well, especially when getting to go first. It was a beast brick that I was able to get a cripplingly strong alpha strike on, with almost no way for him to come back from it. I did bork up Skarath positioning and cost myself a relatively easy CP.
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Post by Gaston on Oct 2, 2017 23:28:33 GMT
Round 2: Grymkin The Dreamer (Dark Menagerie) ---All Fall Down ---Sacrifice ---The Shadow -Cage Rager -Gorehound -Gorehound -Rattler -Rattler -Skin and Moans -Skin and Moans -Crabbit -Crabbit -Crabbit Death Knell Gremlin Swarm Gremlin Swarm Gremlin Swarm Gremlin Swarm Lady Karina Rose Dread Rots (min) Once again I won the die roll and elected to go first. Ark Turn 1: Run, run, run. Forced Evolution the War Hog, Guardian Beast on Arkadius. Dahlia casts Mist Walker on Snake, who runs into the forest. Dreamer Turn 1: Lotsa running too! Both Rattlers put up their Counter Charge animus. Dreamer drops an Artifice of Deviation which really messes with me. Mirage goes on a Skin and Moans (orange proxy base). Ark Turn 2: Feat turn, but the Artifice of Deviation and threat of The Shadow send me into the tank for a good long while. What I ultimately end up doing is sending the right Road Hog in on the Gorehound, taking the counter charge from the Rattler. I kill the Gorehound and Lightning Strike and take one swing on the Rattler. Battle Boar comes up and primals the front War Hog. Arkadius comes up, Primals the other right side War Hog, feats them forward as well as the Road Hog, and puts two Primal Shocks into a Gremlin Swarm, leaving it on one health. Part of this plan was to have Skarath charge the left side Skin and Moans, until I realized Dahlia was too far back to keep him in control. The right side Road Hog also feats on the Rattler. The second Rattler countercharges a War Hog.Then the back War Hog comes around, triggers a Shadow Cage Rager, and kills the Rattler. The front War Hog walks around and kills the Skin and Moans. The Road Hog Overtakes through some Dread Rots, goes to Lightning Strike and I learn the Death Knell has Reach. Oops. Sniper Corps takes out the remaining Dread Rots. Alten pops a shot into the Cage Rager, a Crabbit Shield Guards it to death. Not a terrible feat turn, but far from optimal. More on that later. I also forget to contest his zone with an Efaarit. Dreamer Turn 2: The Gorehound frenzies and charges the War Hog. Dreamer casts Manifest Destiny. The Rattler gets Enrage and kills my Road Hog. Skin and Moans and a Crabbit kill a War Hog and Road Hog. Shadow Cage Rager kills my other War Hog. Gremlin Swarms run to contest, Dreamer drops a large base daydream. It Bulldozes Skarath out of LoS to the Skin and Moans but triggers Guardian Beast allowing me to move the War Hog up. CP: 2-0 Ark Turn 3: Midwinter backs into the zone, tries to pump a shot into the large Daydream to kill the Gremlin Swarm with a bounce, misses everything. Targ moves up and Ancillary Attacks the War Hog into the Gorehound. Arkadius puts Primal on the Snake, Battle Boar, charges and stationaries the Gorehound before backing up. Sniper Corps kills the Gorehound. Battle Boar charges and fails all over the Rattler (10 health left, dice minus 5, missed the charge attack). Skarath charges the Death Knell and finishes it, triggering Sacrifice to heal the Rattler. War Hog charges and kills the other Skin and Moans. Dreamer Turn 3: Dream casts Manifest Destiny, moves Skarath with Abyssal Gate. Cage Rager kills the War Hog, fails to kill Skarath. Crabbit tries to finish the job but fails. Rattler gets enrage, kills Battle Boar. CP: 3-0. Ark Turn 4: Snake frenzies. Dahlia backs up to toe my back zone with Haunting Melody up. Orin goes in on the Rattler to contest. Targ heals Skarath. Arkadius charges the Cage Rager, stationaries it, then backs up. Sniper corps takes out it’s spirit. Dreamer Turn 4: Large daydream Bulldozes Dahlia out of the zone. Rattler circles Midwinter, survives a free strike (awesome dice, wrong column), kills him, overtakes into the zone. CP: 5-0. Lessons Learned: Dang this was a tough one and there was so much I could have done better. On list selection, I do think that Dreamer brings a couple of things that this Arkadius list doesn’t want to see--Artifice of Deviation and a large number of incorporeal contesting models to deal with. As far as my mistakes go: - Dahlia should have Haunting Melody’d herself Turn 1. -Turn 2 Right side Road Hog should have taken an extra swing on the Rattler instead of Lightning Strike. The extra damage could have set the Battle Boar up better later in the game to kill it. Maybe I should have Primal’d him as well? - Turn 2 right side War Hog should have Overtook out the Cage Rager’s melee (accepting the free strike) when it killed the Skin and Moans, might have survived. -Turn 2 Left side Road Hog should have gone for the Gore Hound, tried to kill it and then Lightning Striked backwards. That would have kept a beast in the back field to Primal Shock the Gremlin Swarm, possibly saved me a poor piece trade and freed up an Efaarit to toe the zone to prevent one of his early CPs. - Turn 2 Arkadius had 4 Fury for Primal Shocks, tried to hard roll the hit on the Gremlin Swarm, missed, hit second time with no boost and left it on 1 health. Boost that shit. - Turn 4 when Arkadius charged the Cage Rager he should have killed the Gremlin Swarm with his needle gun. For whatever reason in my mind the Swarms were not living. That would have given me 1 CP and prevented the Turn 4 loss. Those are the ones that I saw anyway, I am sure there are more. Mostly I think they are issues that can be fixed with practice which is good. On the list side of things, I am generally super pleased, but looking at two changes. First making the Battle Boar into a Gorax Rager. Since the theme already grants Overtake, the free charge seems more attractive, maybe would have helped against that Rattler as well. The second change is the solo slot for Orin. While Orin is a fantastic piece, I worry that the list itself is too fast and spreads too quickly for his defensive tech. A Mist Speaker would shore up my Gremlin issues (if Grymkin remain a meta issue) or Eilish could possibly contribute more throughout the game. I am uncertain on this one, but it is good that we now have options.
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