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Post by Gaston on May 18, 2017 1:16:04 GMT
Final week of the battle engine CID and we go out on a high note: Sacral Vault: Feedback showed that many players wanted a heavier support role out of the Sacral Vault. Telemetry synergizes very well with several of the Blind Water Warlocks and promotes the concept of the model. - The Sacral Vault gains Telemetry.
- Telemetry - Other friendly Faction models gain +2 to magic attack rolls against enemy models in this model’s command range.
This is what I’m talking about!!! Telemetry in and of itself is not an OMGWTFBBQ overbearing ability, and time and playtesting will tell if it is overpowered, underpowered, or just right, but the concept hits exactly at the core of what I feel makes the difference between a good design for a Warmachine model and a great one. One of the biggest appeals of this game is the interconnection between models as players build a list. This ability can build on that ability, this synergy connects with that one and so on. It is by having rules within an army that interact with each other that interesting lists get developed and players keep coming back into the dojo to try different combinations of models. When each model is selfish and doesn’t share, things stagnate and narrow down to a mathematical calculation of who has the best stats. We saw this happen immediately on Week 1 with the Meat Thresher granting Concealment. Within moments Commandos came off the shelves in people’s lists, followed by all the other models with a strong interaction from Prowl--Dahlia and Skarath, Lanyssa, and so on. This even happens in theme forces in unexpected ways--Thrullgs were never in any discussion until they could be taken for free in Blindwater Congregation. And this is precisely what just happened today with the Sacral Vault--not only does Telemetry touch upon Minion Warlocks, but it also interacts with a startling number of solos within the faction. Orin and Lanyssa are relatively obvious ones, but all of a sudden other solos see abilities that they had written off their card open up. Mist Speakers are fairly ubiquitous in Minion lists due to Guidance being a fantastic support ability. However, very seldom does one see them cast Influence, because the opportunity cost for it is so high. You have to have models in the right position, then roll to hit, then roll for the next attack to hit with your opponent’s stats, then roll damage with whatever weapon is available. By increasing the Magic Ability to 8, some of the risk of all of those die rolls is mitigated and the Mist Speaker becomes a much more tactically flexible model. Ditto for Dominate Undead. All of a sudden, Frost Hammer on Brun doesn’t seem like a huge waste of fury when you jump from a base stat of 4 to 6 on a spray. None of this accounts for future possibilities either, such as the Conjoined Croak Twin. The ripple effects from a small interaction or small buff can be enormous. Independent of our solos, this helps a broader range of warlocks than I think people may realize. Calaban is an obvious winner here to be sure, but consider the case of Helga. Helga has 2 offensive spells that, in 95% of my games at least, never get used: Distraction and Muzzle. Her issue is one of Fury 6; on any given turn she is upkeeping Defender’s Ward, then needs to walk into Range 10 or 12, boost to do the deed, then Cyclone back. And maybe heal. Cast primal. Boost a gun shot. That leaves her on approximately….zero camp, and strapped for fury above and beyond even that. A great many times I have cursed the dice gods when I was relying on one of those two spells and they came up just shy. And thus those spells were written out of my game plan as unreliable. I can easily see the Sacral Vault being a great way of reopening a whole section of her playbook. The difference between Fury 6 and 8 when rolling to hit is immense, just ask Midas--that is the entire reason he has Curse in the first place. My point with all of this is that this is the type of design that should be appreciated, encouraged, and lauded. Even when it is small abilities, they open up strategic and tactical possibilities that help keep things fresh before you even get your models on the table. My only regret is I don’t have enough time to try all my ideas before the CID ends.
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Post by Azahul on May 18, 2017 1:54:40 GMT
Yeah, I agree with that completely. It's what was always missing from Battle Engines, so many of them were models that just operated in total isolation to the rest of the list.
Sturm at Fury 9 for Telekinesis doesn't seem awful either.
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Post by danfromchicago on May 18, 2017 3:33:04 GMT
How about Midas?
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Post by custardboy on May 18, 2017 7:03:41 GMT
I initially thought of Helga and Midas but they just don't care about the sacral vault's other tech. Both would LOVE a nephilim bloodseer as it is a warbeast (and cheaper).
Helga loses out on 18 points of trigger and benefit of gang fighter, dash and her feat. Its why she doesn't want a meat thresher, though that does take part in the feat.
It is a bit more favourable for Midas. He loses a bit of his feat and that's about it (we have limited targets for battle lust anyway). It may be a consideration to run him out of theme with a sacral vault, nyss hunters and shamblers.
Calaban and Maelok are the winners here. Maelok because spamming venom with telemetry is fantastic- I've done it with Bethayne.
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Post by zwergenkrieger on May 18, 2017 7:57:25 GMT
Hi Gaston,
after a break from this game I came back and played a couple games with Helga, though with no success. My list basically is:
Helga Targ Battle Boar Road Hog Road Hog Full Brigands + Warlord Rorsh and Brine Wrong Eye and Snapjaw Saxon Orrick Layssa Rysell Feralgheist
I don't own double Brigands right now therefore I played with Wrongeye and Snapjaw. The idea was to increase the Brigands survivalability by Defenders Ward and Starcrossed from Wrongeye, though it seems to be a trap in the longrun. W&S never did anything spectecular. Right now I wonder why this team is rated to be such good.
Well, the question I like to ask: Where do you see the strenghts of your Helga list? Is it more of an all commers list or did you build it with specific foes in mind?
Although I forgot about her gang ability in all of my games I wonder about the damage output of our similar beast loadout. I faced Baldur2, Makeda2 and Zadesh2 all tailored to really high arm and I couldn't see an opportunity to handle this high arm. In fact, in almost every game I faced something I could not handle and had to play around, either buffed to the stars Cetrati or some buffed Colossals or battle engines. That's why I start to wonder about Helga as an all comers type of warlock.
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Post by macdaddy on May 18, 2017 13:05:07 GMT
This buff to sacral vault has me seriously considering buying my buddies gators off him and running caliban and Maelock. Cant agree more about how substantial telemetry is for this model.
The meat thresher is falling behind now haha
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Post by Gaston on May 18, 2017 18:10:09 GMT
Hi Gaston, after a break from this game I came back and played a couple games with Helga, though with no success. My list basically is: Helga Targ Battle Boar Road Hog Road Hog Full Brigands + Warlord Rorsh and Brine Wrong Eye and Snapjaw Saxon Orrick Layssa Rysell Feralgheist I don't own double Brigands right now therefore I played with Wrongeye and Snapjaw. The idea was to increase the Brigands survivalability by Defenders Ward and Starcrossed from Wrongeye, though it seems to be a trap in the longrun. W&S never did anything spectecular. Right now I wonder why this team is rated to be such good. Well, the question I like to ask: Where do you see the strenghts of your Helga list? Is it more of an all commers list or did you build it with specific foes in mind? Although I forgot about her gang ability in all of my games I wonder about the damage output of our similar beast loadout. I faced Baldur2, Makeda2 and Zadesh2 all tailored to really high arm and I couldn't see an opportunity to handle this high arm. In fact, in almost every game I faced something I could not handle and had to play around, either buffed to the stars Cetrati or some buffed Colossals or battle engines. That's why I start to wonder about Helga as an all comers type of warlock. I would venture that Helga is not an all comers warlock, especially the way that I play her. My overall strategy is: -Take as many guns as possible -Put Def Ward on Helga -Get her within 17" -Feat, Knockdown, Shoot, Pray Not exactly brimming with strategic brilliance, but somehow it keeps working. Generally it can handle a moderate amount of armor, but nothing along the lines of say Baldur2, or Khador jack spam. I did manage to drop Issyria's Hyperion, but it took like 3 turns to do so. That being said...Helga can probably be built to handle armor better. In theory she can swing all our beasts by +4 (Primal/Gang). So you get that Pow 22 War Hog in there, he does some damage, and you don't need to worry about actually applying debuffs, which is really nice. For something like that, I'd drop theme, run as little infantry as is reasonable, and as big a battle group as you can manage. My current dojo in that direction is: Helga -Targ -Road Hog -Road Hog -War Hog -War Hog -War Hog -Battle Boar Feralgeist Feralgeist Feralgeist Lanyssa Totem Hunter I have not playtested it yet however, and suspect it is subject to some shake up, particularly as I'd like to get more Battle Boar in there, and maybe some River Raiders, Pendrake, etc. Lots to look into. WRT Wrong Eye and Snapjaw; getting the most out of Starcrossed is a game of Def Skew. Def 14 Brigands are good, Def 16 Nyss under it are better. Ditto for Dahlia and Skarath. It is also a lot stronger with Helga the more you play into infantry heavy lists, where you can apply Distraction to your opponent. Other reasons to like them is that Snapjaw is one of the hardest hitters in Minions, and they can both be immune to spells and shooting; very handy versus the likes of Cygnar or Rahn.
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Post by gdead909 on May 23, 2017 1:02:29 GMT
So maelok, running in theme I assume?
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Post by gdead909 on May 23, 2017 1:04:45 GMT
Here is what I am running this week.
War Room Army
Minions - Here for the GRIND
Theme: The Blindwater Congregation 3 / 3 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army
Maelok the Dreadbound - WB: +28 - Blackhide Wrastler - PC: 16 (Battlegroup Points Used: 16) - Blind Walker - PC: 12 (Battlegroup Points Used: 12) - Bull Snapper - PC: 0
Sacral Vault - PC: 18
Gatorman Witch Doctor - PC: 0 Gatorman Witch Doctor - PC: 0 Viktor Pendrake - PC: 4 Feralgeist - PC: 2
Gatorman Posse (Blindwater) - Leader & 4 Grunts: 17 Gatorman Posse (Blindwater) - Leader & 4 Grunts: 17 Gatorman Posse (Blindwater) - Leader & 4 Grunts: 17
THEME: The Blindwater Congregation ---
GENERATED : 05/22/2017 21:04:02 BUILD ID : 2041.17-05-20
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Post by Gaston on May 23, 2017 21:00:03 GMT
I certainly appreciate Rat 9 Venoms, my question would be is the Blindwalker needed to apply them?
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Post by gdead909 on May 24, 2017 0:55:21 GMT
No but under feat its nice to multiple vectors. He could become a spitter
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Post by Gaston on Aug 3, 2017 17:12:31 GMT
Been a bit of a life break, but back in the saddle again! I have decided to focus on Arkadius and Calaban as a current pairing. While I am super familiar with Arkadius, I have far less playtime with Calaban, so time to get testing! Calaban, Blindwater Congregation, Tier 4 -Blackhide Wrastler -Ironback Spitter -Ironback Spitter Sacral Vault Viktor Pendrake (free) Mist Speaker (free) Bog Trog Trawler Bog Trog Trawler Chef Croak Raiders (max) Croak Raiders (max) This list looks to test A LOT of new concepts all at once, and that makes it very experimental (read: bad?). Points that I’m looking to hit are: - Croak Raiders vs. Brigands -- going in theme gives me a fair number of benefits, but mandates this trade off. Traditionally I have taken Brigands because of a higher base Pow on the gun and natural Pathfinder. Conversely, Croaks even the damage when Black Oil is applied, have Advanced Deployment and +2”, and a better defense.
- Bog Trog Trawlers -- an interesting use of 6 points. They Ambush in and as solos can grab flags which I like, they also can grab and pull things away, which I also like. I have had horrible times with them in the past, but feel maybe I just haven’t played them enough to give them the chance to shine.
- Blindwalker -- he’s out! I want to try Calabna without him. He is expensive for an arc node that you realistically get one turn of use from. Also he really screws up my battle group. I really like Spitters in pairs with Calaban for a variety of reasons, but they want the Wrastler to support them with Rage. So you get the Spitter-Wrastler-Spitter Oreo. Or if you go with a Blindwalker, then I like Wrastler-Walker-Wrastler. The conundrum is real, because I do really really want an arc node with Calaban.
- Sacral Vault -- New shiny, synergies well.
So with all that in mind, I headed out to the LFGS!!! I lack Trawlers so they are cleverly represented by cheap wooden cutouts. I have a Vault but am too lazy to transport it, so it is represented by a cheap cardboard cutout. First round versus PoM: Harbinger -Hierophant -Reckoner -Vigilant Vessel of Acceptance Monk Monk (Monkdelyn Corbeau) Covenant Mechanik x2 Choir (min) KE w/ UA KE w/ UA Rhoven and Honor Guard Scenario was the Pit II. We both selected pathfinder objective. Harby Turn 1: Running. Monks Shifting Sands Stance. Calaban Turn 1: Occultation on the red Croaks. Turtle kills a Monk, Harby Martyrs. Both Turtles and Calaban put up Counter Blast. Running. Harby Turn 2: Move up, position. Harby blows away Occultation, and Counter Blast, and Counter Blast, and Counter Blast. VoA blows away 7 Croak Raiders. Calaban Turn 2: Some seriously cute interactions happened this turn. The Trawlers can actually drag things out of Martyrdom range, so I ambushed them, had one gun for a Choir and another for a KE. Both missed of course. So then I just kinda set about lighting everyone on Fire. And then lighting them on Corrosion as well. The idea playing into her was to force her to overload on Martyrdom, and then all the single wound infantry has to survive a chance of both fire and corrosion killing them as well, and once you’re laying 3 kills into each guy, Harby can’t keep up. Eventually he Martyrs down to about two health. I saved Calaban to the end because I wanted him to be Martyr’d out so I could get my arc node. He then boops a Monk, spins him around and puts a Bone Shaker into another KE (walks around and misses a swing on his buddy) and then kills Rhoven off with a Bone Shaker as well (spins around and tries to light Harby on fire, but misses). The Book is on Corrosion as well. Something randomly kills the second Monk. Harby Turn 3: Once all the dust settles he has lost all but the UA from one KE unit, both Monks, half the second unit, and has no reasonable way to keep me from very, very slowly grinding out a scenario win on the right flank. He goes ahead and concedes so we can both get a second game in as the game will still likely run for another god knows how many turns.
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Post by Gaston on Aug 3, 2017 17:12:52 GMT
Next round was versus Circle. He was doing his own experimenting trying to flesh out some of his ADR lists, God help him. I am not a fan of that format. Morvahnna the Autumnblade, The Wild Hunt, Tier 3.75 -Woldwrath Gallows Grove x2 Wolf Lord Morraig Reeves (max) w/ UA Shifting Stones w/ UA Shifting Stones Skinwalkers (max) w/ UA Wolves of Orboros (max) w/ UA and AMBUSH!!! Same table, same scenario, but different sides!!!!!!!!!! Calaban Turn 1: Shit runs, Occultation on red Croaks. Morv Turner 1: Regrowth on Stones, Harvest on herself? I think? Shit runs. Except for the Woldwrath who shoots me. Jerk. Calaban Turn 2: Time for my Trawlers to shine again! They ambush in, one charges a stone and fails to kill it, which means that I cannot drag the Alpha out of formation (blocked angle). Sigh. Red Croaks gut the front 3 Skinwalkers. Turtle drops the Alpha to 1 wound. Trawler tries to kill him and bounces armor, sigh sigh. Some Reeves die, both Groves die. Turtle and Wrastler position for the inevitable Magic Monkey coming my way. Morv Turn 2: He ambushes me back on the right flank with the WoO. Alpha dies to Corrosion (thank you very much). Morraig turns around and splatters Trawler #1 (lazy bastard had it coming). WoO minifeat, charge in, kill some Croaks, bad dice leaves objective alive on 5 health. Monkey tramples and kills some Croaks. Reeves kill some more. Skinwalkers Skinwalk. Stones Port. Calaban Turn 3: Trawler puts 5 damage on Morraig because why the hell not. Green Croaks Oil the Wrath and move out of the charge lanes, chip some damage on it. Calaban does a weird two step where he puts Rage up on both the Turtle and the Wrastler, then scoots as far back as he can to keep them in control but get LoS to the WoO around the back of the building. Feats, tries to shoot a Wolf and misses. Turtle and Wrastler kill off the Wrath. Gobber Chef backstabs a Wolf (YES!!!). Croaks shuffle, couple die to free strikes to deny Skinwalkers the arm bonus. One Skinwalker dies, another is on fire, Wolf or two dies. Pendrake Bolas the other Skinwalker, who is now oiled, Knocked Down, on fire, and corroded. Bad day bro. (Spoiler: None of this kills him). Turtle and Calaban Hex Blast and Bone Shakers handle the rest of the Wolves, killing 9/12. Sacral Vault kills his objective. 2-0 CP. Morv Turn 3: Shifting Stones contest, a couple more Croaks get shot. Skinwalker doesn’t die, heals from a stone, heals himself. WoO do attacks and movement. Calaban Turn 4: Clear the left zone again. Calaban moves into the center zone, Occultation on himself, Carnivore on Croaks. Chef gets KILL #2!!! Turtle aims and blasts the Skinwalker, Croaks are immune. Croaks kill a stone and dismount Morraig. 4-0 CP, my opponent concedes. Lessons Learned: Hmmm...I do feel like these were very favorable match ups. Harbinger didn’t feel that way at first, but after layering on the continuous effects, I can see a path to victory against her that was stronger than at first glance. Unfortunately for Circle, that was kinda a great match up for Calaban with a lot of infantry that is relatively squishy. On the items I was actively testing for: - Croak Raiders did good, no concerns dropping Brigands to go theme (thus far!!!). I will say the new battle engines will remove them with disgusting ease, but sadly that is the same for all Minion infantry. Bad stats faction wide sucks. I can see the Raiders being dicey and driving me nuts, but these games they did their job.
- Trawlers: Who the Firetruck knows? As much as I got good dice for the Raiders, I got bad dice for the Trawlers. Maybe I need to buy models for them so they will roll better? I don’t really know how I want to change the list at the moment, so I guess they will stay in for now, but they are on notice.
- Sacral Vault, more like the Sweet Vault. Never got to use Telemetry. See point below.
- Blindwalker: This is gonna need more testing. I love the balance I have with the battle group right now, but not having him definitely cost me the ability to have Calaban impact the game at certain times and certain areas. That being said, Calaban did go on a Bone Shaker binge both games with good results. Flip side--I never once casted Parasite and can’t help but wonder if that will cost me into tankier match ups. Flip flip side--I am pairing this with Arkadius for tankier match ups? I really don’t know which direction I want to go here.
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Post by Azahul on Aug 3, 2017 23:28:22 GMT
Gobber Chef backstabs a Wolf (YES!!!). Your opponent should have just conceded then and there. You'd already won the real victory
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Post by Gaston on Aug 3, 2017 23:37:15 GMT
Gobber Chef backstabs a Wolf (YES!!!). Your opponent should have just conceded then and there. You'd already won the real victory TWICE!!! Lol and to think he almost stayed in the bag.
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