tanan
Junior Strategist
Posts: 209
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Post by tanan on Oct 1, 2017 7:48:10 GMT
Reposition 3" for battlegroup is amazing, way better than advance move (even on first turn, 4" (advance move) + 8" (run) = 2" (theme) + 7" (trample) + 3" (repo)). Rhulic heavies jacks are also one of the best heavies in the game.
Also having access to few free overpriced solos is nothing compared to free HACs, 2" extra deployment and tough on warrior models.
Heck, If Hammer Strike allowed human warcasters I would never play Irregulars.
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Whiskie
Junior Strategist
Posts: 288
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Post by Whiskie on Oct 1, 2017 13:17:26 GMT
Yeah I think people are freaking out a little bit too much over the number of free points that Irregulars can generate compared to what you'll usually see in Hammer Strike. Yes, free points are nice and lots of free points is even more nice. But it isn't the only thing that matters.
There's an awful lot of subtle value that you get out of +2" deployment and repositioning heavies and artillery. Being able to shell someone from 16" out and then back out of threat range with Arty is huge. Being able to charge in a Driller, damage a heavy and then reposition out of the way so that a second heavy can come in and finish the job is awesome. Also randomly picking up Tough for Hammer Dorfs was really unexpected and will make the Forge Guard + Siege Crawler synergy even better.
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Post by colobos on Oct 1, 2017 20:58:10 GMT
Off the top of my head? Ossrum is stronger in HS than Irregulars into uh, Cygnar, Khador, CoC, Retribution, Circle, trolls and maybe Skorne. haha! why? because your heavies get repo 3"? OOOH WOW LOOK MY 10 POINT DRILLER IS 3" OVER THERE NOW!!! u can build the same list in irregulars and get more free points plus all the goodies the rest of the faction has to offer! just think! orin can keep your crawler from getting TKed by Haley2 or blinded by Issyria or Parasited by Cryx! you can cast snipe on eiryss1 for extra control. you can use puppet master on the FFE crawler for extra chances at crit stagger. you can use kiss of lyliss on that arcane shielded hurricane! you can bring kayazy eliminators to go score and contest zones because dorfs are super slow and ossrum has to keep everything within 12" of him and stay way back so he don't die! but u go have fun scooting your heavies ossrum doesn't have the focus to run around after they finish their activation so they can be a wee bit farther away when they get wrecked! I disagree. * More free points does not de-facto give you more value. With Ossrum, I consider 2x free mortars and a Bokur at 17 points to be at worst equal, and at best better than 20ish points of other solo's due to what they offer him. * Regarding Orin, you don't need to avoid H2 TK's on the crawlers to still have a good matchup into her. The conrtol 2x crawlers have with stagger + snipe/FfE along with the other things is enough. The same goes for blinds with Issyria. You have enough time to either kill the arc nodes or weather a turn of blinds to come out the other end in a favorable position. Cryx piloted by good players are horrible for Mercs all together, Orin is not enough in either theme to make the difference right now. * Snipe on on Eiryss, puppet master on the crawler and kiss of lyliss are cute, but again, not enough. Moreover, as good Aiyanna is, she is quite easy to remove. * With repo 3" and +3 speed, you can get to contest flags if you plan for it with things that are tricky themselves to trivially remove, so although kayazy are indeed nice, not needed. * I only run 1 heavy right now with Ossrum and I agree, he's not great at fueling multiple heavies, that's why a lot of top lists only run 1-2 and quite a few run none at all - see WTC lists if you like. Also, in you're example that included a siege crawler, you'd only get 3 solo's max, so even then, hardly any more free points on paper. Just my personal opinion of course, but I prefer Hammer Strike for Ossrum.
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shoe
Junior Strategist
Posts: 706
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Post by shoe on Oct 2, 2017 0:28:35 GMT
ok fine! if you want to run two crawlers and double hammer dwarves and get absolutely steamrolled by ghost fleet when ossrum in irregulars is one of the few true answers in the faction then hammer strike is definitely your theme. now we can all be friends!
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Whiskie
Junior Strategist
Posts: 288
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Post by Whiskie on Oct 2, 2017 0:54:10 GMT
ok fine! if you want to run two crawlers and double hammer dwarves and get absolutely steamrolled by ghost fleet when ossrum in irregulars is one of the few true answers in the faction then hammer strike is definitely your theme. now we can all be friends! Can you explain in detail what Ossrum in Irregulars brings to the Ghost Fleet match up that Hammer Strike doesn't? I get Magic Weapons from Aiyana & Holt in addition to anti-magic from Orin. It you could post the full list that you've been playing it'd be really helpful. I'm in the Hammer Strike camp right now but am completely willing to be convinced by solid reasoning.
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Post by drakeraids on Oct 2, 2017 1:20:43 GMT
Ok fine! If you want to run two crawlers and double hammer dwarves and get absolutely steamrolled by ghost fleet when Ossrum in Irregulars is one of the few true answers in the faction then Hammer Strike is definitely your theme. Now we can all be friends! I'm pretty sure Llael Resistance will end up having better tech to deal with Ghost Fleet than Ossrum in Irregulars, personally. But we'll see. Maybe if you feel like doing more than spewing sarcastic vitriol we could have a discussion with it, but honestly you seem so entrenched in your position I doubt you even have the ability to acknowledge another side may exist.
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shoe
Junior Strategist
Posts: 706
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Post by shoe on Oct 2, 2017 4:08:24 GMT
ok fine! if you want to run two crawlers and double hammer dwarves and get absolutely steamrolled by ghost fleet when ossrum in irregulars is one of the few true answers in the faction then hammer strike is definitely your theme. now we can all be friends! Can you explain in detail what Ossrum in Irregulars brings to the Ghost Fleet match up that Hammer Strike doesn't? I get Magic Weapons from Aiyana & Holt in addition to anti-magic from Orin. It you could post the full list that you've been playing it'd be really helpful. I'm in the Hammer Strike camp right now but am completely willing to be convinced by solid reasoning. Ok. Troll hat off. Two different list concepts are being discussed in this thread. The Hammer Strike version advocated is 2 Crawlers and 2 Forge Guard because that's the only way you're getting 3 free things in this theme. If you're seriously planning to call Repo 3 a benefit then your battle group is 2 Drillers, a Basher, and a Gunner or Blaster. Your free things are either 2 bokurs or 2 artillery and 1 of the other thing. Ossrum +28 Driller 10 Driller 10 Basher 9 Blaster 6 10 Forge Guard 16 10 Forge Guard 16 Crawler 18 Crawler 18 Artillery Free Bokur Free (or Artillery) Bokur Free I really don't see how you build it any other way and want to reasonably claim to me that you're getting all the benefits of Hammer Strike so as to offset what you lose in Irregulars. My Ossrum Hammer Strike list only had 2 free models because Ossrum wants a big battle group and Hammer Strike penalizes you for taking one. That list maximizes the tough/recursion benefit, the repo 3" benefit and gets to a comparable level of free points as Irregulars. It also strikes me as poorly-constructed because it is building to the theme force benefits and not Ossrum's personal strengths. Ossrum will want to juggle FFE between the crawlers or the artillery, and that's four focus so he can't cast Energizer and hand off any focus to the heavies. He has too much to do so more than half the list is sub-optimal compared to what it could be and he's given up his alpha strike potential by not running Gunners. It costs 4 freaking focus to load up a Driller and get it to threat 10 sorry inches for crying out loud. So maybe you just leave FFE and Snipe on the Crawlers and use the 4 focus for just that. Ossrum can do so much more. It also plainly has no prayer into Cryx. Nor am I that impressed with double tough Forge Guard coming back with Ossrum. They are slow and get sandpapered off. Of the 20 dwarves there, I imagine a competent opponent will allow 6 or 7 to swing in a game. Now double FG with Gorten in Hammer Strike and a couple crawlers has an argument because his are 14/18 no KD. Other problems are it has is only 1 solo for scoring if you go double free Artillery. It also has a hell of a time contesting in Spread the Net, Recon II or some of the others without giving up something very valuable like a heavy. It also has no magic weapon. Oh, and it's the slowest army in the game other than Ossrum's feat turn. Switch to Irregulars Ossrum +28 7 Gunners 42 1 Blaster 6 Crawler 18 10 Forge Guard 16 Eliminators 5 Eliminators 5 Anastasia 3 Aiyana and Holt 8 Eiryss1 Free Orin Free Eilish Free Points are almost the same. This list is built with Cryx in mind, but does not sacrifice much to the other factions as bunny spam was strong and never really stopped being good. The Forge Guard aren't great into Ghost Fleet, but they hold off the Wraith Engine and they're needed for the Bane theme that will be paired with it and to ensure the list can deal with a good amount of armor. In this list, Ossrum can put Snipe on Eiryss, FFE on the Crawler and use his focus to either cast Energizer or UF, juggle Snipe and/or camp. Unstoppable Force with 8 Bunnies can do incredibly powerful things. It is also quite strong into most of the rest of the field save for Irusk2, Harkevich or similar ARM skews. Protectorate and strong anti-shooting armies would also be bad. This list also brings disruption (and fury removal), Kiss of Lyliss, Arcane Vortex, Puppet Master on the Crawler for a nearly 70% shot at stagger, Puppet Master on Stranglehold, Puppet Master AND FFE on Eiryss1, Chain Lightning, Magic Weapon, 2 units of speedy and totally self-sufficient Eliminators to contest distant zones and flags or score round zones, more pieces to use for pushing with Unstoppable Force, more solos, more warjacks, +1 to go first, more alpha strike potential, much better assassination and more free focus. On the downside, it has less ARM and boxes than the first list.
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Post by colobos on Oct 2, 2017 12:22:27 GMT
"I really don't see how you build it any other way and want to reasonably claim to me that you're getting all the benefits of Hammer Strike so as to offset what you lose in Irregulars" I'd say the term benefit is a misnomer here. Utilizing all aspects of a theme isn't necessarily beneficial. For example, you're irregular list has no jack marshaled jacks, why? - because it would actually make it worse for it's intended purpose, which I gather is to play into Denny1 Ghost fleet. So I'd say the list example you gave is a little sub-optimal, where the intention is to have a list that can play into a lot of matchup's. I'd a list similar to these perhaps helps with contesting more and are are less reliant on Ossrum spending focus on them. Ossrum +28 Driller 10 Gunner 6 Gunner 6 Gunner 6 Gunner 6 Gunner 6 6 Forge Guard 10 10 Forge Guard 16 Crawler 18 Crawler 18 Artillery Free Artillery Free Bokur Free You can drop a gunner for a blasters, to make both Forge Guard Max units, or swap the driller + gunner for an avalancher etc. I agree you're Irregular list is indeed better into Denny Ghost Fleet. You have Stealth removal, 23" Eiryss threat, lots of gunner to take her down and stuff. But as a Cryx player, would you risk dropping Ghost Fleet into that, or just be safer and play Coven Dark Host? Is you're list any good into DH Coven? Genuine question, not being a contrarian.
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Xintas
Junior Strategist
Posts: 824
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Post by Xintas on Oct 2, 2017 13:34:42 GMT
Not to derail the two lists developing (which I think are adding a lot to the discussion), but does Alexia1 in Irregulars combined with Siege crawler provide more or less recursion and use (in your minds) than Crawler + Tough in theme?
I tend to think it does, because the only way to get body mass plus solo in theme is Brun and Lug, but getting tough in Irregulars is easy with Rhupert. As someone earlier said though, I'm happy to be wrong.
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shoe
Junior Strategist
Posts: 706
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Post by shoe on Oct 2, 2017 14:13:35 GMT
We have a Dark Host coven player who pairs with Denny1 Ghost Fleet. I tried nothing but bunnies into Coven Dark Host and could not kill it fast enough due to the stupid WE, stealth, clouds, and the feat so I added Forge Guard since he runs double cav. Between them and the Eliminators it should do better but I have not tested it yet. My theory is the list is just about the best we can do into Cryx atm though I am working on a Shae list that might be ok.
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Post by pattison on Oct 2, 2017 19:42:03 GMT
Is that darn battle engine an absolute must now? I dislike huge bases in general and there's no freaking way I'm buying TWO of those.
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Whiskie
Junior Strategist
Posts: 288
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Post by Whiskie on Oct 2, 2017 20:12:41 GMT
Is that darn battle engine an absolute must now? I dislike huge bases in general and there's no freaking way I'm buying TWO of those. One Siege Crawler is perfectly fine. I'm not sure it's a must but it adds a LOT to Hammer Strike lists.
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shoe
Junior Strategist
Posts: 706
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Post by shoe on Oct 2, 2017 21:14:49 GMT
Is that darn battle engine an absolute must now? I dislike huge bases in general and there's no freaking way I'm buying TWO of those. If you want to play Hammer Strike it is as close to an absolute must as there is. You can do a perfectly fine Ossrum Irregulars list with free Reinholdt and drillers/bunnies/artillery or somesuch in its place.
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Xintas
Junior Strategist
Posts: 824
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Post by Xintas on Oct 3, 2017 14:05:53 GMT
Is that darn battle engine an absolute must now? I dislike huge bases in general and there's no freaking way I'm buying TWO of those. I also dislike huge bases and assembling the thing was super frustrating. A lot of my lists now involve the questions: "Why am I not taking it?" and "Would this be better with some variation of the dwarf recursion machine?"
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Post by Rancor on Jan 2, 2018 19:23:50 GMT
This may be a dumb dumb question, but I've been away for a while and google didn't help much here... The term recursion is getting thrown around a lot and I'm not sure I'm following what you guys mean by that. Are you simply implying that the list has a high level of mechanical redundancy, as to prevent hinging on a small number of models? Is it a game specific term that I missed?
Loving the Hammerstrike lists BTW. Will be looking into a siege crawler or two and play testing this in time for CaptainCon in a month.
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