isotope
Junior Strategist
Posts: 634
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Post by isotope on Aug 28, 2017 3:32:27 GMT
Gaston did a good job placing them well to protect multiple beasts. When I could see beasts ( prowl on snake) I had to hit them with RAT 5 stormfalls indo a Defender's Ward( Helga) beast with my SFA/HRT . RAT 5 into DEF 14 beast with an 6 5 box ARM 17 shield guards with tough the turn before feat triggered a vengeance on one unit which he moved 3" then ran one and charged one (and walked the one that had toughed?) up with their 2" weapon to engage 2 of my archers for feat turn. My jacks/AFG on the other side of the table had to deal with another unit of shield guards with 2 more beasts and helga behind a wall. Sure I feated and killed those 2 beasts but since I got greedy and bit off more than I could chew for my feat( tried to get all 3 pig beasts) I left my self exposed to a slam from totem hunter into walk and kill distance of his beast with defenders ward and 6 shield guards. Now knowing how awesome those things worked for him I doubt I'd wanna drop a gunline into that again. In my other list he can shield guard Helios/Helynna pulls for all of eternity... Those things are like a tetsudo around your beast... you don't bring them to put out damage, you'll use them to deliver a beast and then be speed bumps for any threats to them once you're in melee. Killing 3 DEF13/ARM17 5 box models with tough to clear a charge lane on his beast once everything's smashing together is gonna suck.
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Post by Gaston on Aug 28, 2017 3:59:14 GMT
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Post by Gaston on Aug 28, 2017 4:11:37 GMT
I think ultimately it could have been more instructive to play vs both isotope's list pairs, the second being Helynna, Imp, Disco, and 25 terrifying weaponmasters. That would then have made a report into a gunline and a second where all the tactics and positioning would have needed to adapt. I just ran outta play time .
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isotope
Junior Strategist
Posts: 634
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Post by isotope on Aug 28, 2017 4:19:33 GMT
I think ultimately it could have been more instructive to play vs both isotope's list pairs, the second being Helynna, Imp, Disco, and 25 terrifying weaponmasters. That would then have made a report into a gunline and a second where all the tactics and positioning would have needed to adapt. I just ran outta play time . Against helynna or a helios list shield guards will save your heavies from pulls forever. That 3" threat extender on helynna gets me a lot of alpha strikes., i cant pull of off if youre sitting on 9 shield guards.
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Post by Azahul on Aug 28, 2017 4:24:06 GMT
I'm afraid you're doing Helga entirely wrong Gaston. You don't have River Raiders.
Fact: Any Helga list without 9 River Raiders is being played wrong.
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Post by Gaston on Aug 28, 2017 10:49:03 GMT
I think ultimately it could have been more instructive to play vs both isotope's list pairs, the second being Helynna, Imp, Disco, and 25 terrifying weaponmasters. That would then have made a report into a gunline and a second where all the tactics and positioning would have needed to adapt. I just ran outta play time . Against helynna or a helios list shield guards will save your heavies from pulls forever. That 3" threat extender on helynna gets me a lot of alpha strikes., i cant pull of off if youre sitting on 9 shield guards. Any ability that lets me manipulate positioning is an ability I love to use and hate to have used against me.
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Post by Gaston on Aug 28, 2017 10:49:34 GMT
I'm afraid you're doing Helga entirely wrong Gaston. You don't have River Raiders. Fact: Any Helga list without 9 River Raiders is being played wrong. I think they can be a free theme benefit?
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Post by Cryptix on Aug 28, 2017 12:43:50 GMT
I've already made a list with 3 raider groups, some gremlins, and spamming road hogs under carver but I didn't get to test it.
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Post by Azahul on Aug 28, 2017 13:37:27 GMT
I think they can be a free theme benefit? That is indeed my understanding. They're a pretty solid points:advance move ratio too.
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Post by Gaston on Aug 28, 2017 13:52:37 GMT
I think they can be a free theme benefit? That is indeed my understanding. They're a pretty solid points:advance move ratio too. Hah, that is cute. I haven't really had any issues getting enough advance moves, but I think Eilish is going in with Helga for Puppet Master. Holding my breath every time I cast one of her offensive spells is getting annoying.
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Post by gobber on Aug 29, 2017 2:21:44 GMT
8.28 CID Update: Valkyries swap assault for point blank!
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Post by Gaston on Aug 29, 2017 2:23:09 GMT
Midas will like that. Probably. Should math it out some time.
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Post by huckebein on Aug 29, 2017 2:27:13 GMT
I wouldn't say its just Midas that would like it. Assault wasnt that great a rule on them to start with since you wanted to be keeping them near the stuff they were shield guarding anyway, and point blank makes them a lot better if you end up in a scrapper situation whete theyve survived until the lines crashed and now they need to do work instead of just shield guarding.
It also means that they can each slam twice with helga
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Post by Gaston on Aug 29, 2017 3:01:38 GMT
It also means you can make Pow 14 Vengeance swings.
I think my hesitation is that I don't especially consider this to be a buff so much as a side grade. You do indeed gain hitting power, but are sacrificing threat and positioning. One of my gameplans with them was to charge two models in reach range, kill one with assault, redirect and kill the second. Now I have to get within 0.5" of target #2. It also decreases their maximum damage threat ranges too. You gain a bit, you give up a bit.
I still see them as being as hardy as non theme GMP which even at 2 points cheaper is not enthralling. I had a good game with them and generally like the game plan I built around them, but I think the questions must be answered: how attractive are they when you are not building for them to test in CID? If you didn't take GMP outside of Blindwater before, is Shield Guard and -2 pts enough to change that strategy?
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Post by gobber on Aug 29, 2017 3:03:49 GMT
If they get an extra die from Carver/Midas/Helga they average ~10.5 damage per model vs arm20. Pow 12+4 dice (avg6) and a pow 14+3 dice point blank (avg4.5) each.
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