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Post by Azahul on Aug 24, 2017 22:39:48 GMT
I've been running Carver out of theme because Mat 5, P+S 11, 0.5" Retaliatory Strikes weren't worth losing Gremlin Swarms. Now he's in this theme and I get a few extra solos on top. It's stupid good.
It's sadder for Arkadius because I did really, really like how Retaliatory Strike worked with his kit, but my brain keeps screaming Advance Move and who the hell thought it was ok to give Arkadius Advance Move?!
The Valkyries frustrate me more and more the longer I think about them. They're exactly what I expected and wanted (slightly higher defensive stats, I did not see Def 13 coming, and slightly lower output because I was thinking they'd be P+S 12 base, but they're there for Shield Guards so neither of those is a big factor). But that was before the theme dropped. And the theme renders them irrelevant. The problems are:
-They are 8 points, so they are 1 point too expensive for any Warlock to run them without losing a free solo. Arkadius, for example, is already taking two free Bokurs and Targ and then probably Hutchuck or something (vary to taste), so he's making good use of all four free solos. That raises their cost to benefit ratio to the point where they'll never be used. Why spend an effective 12+ points on three more Shield Guards when you already have two? -Sturm and Drang have the best buff for them, since they aren't worth putting Defender's Ward on (if people can kill 5-10 Haley3 Storm Lances they can definitely kill 3 Valkyries). Sturm and Drang already have an entire battlegroup of Shield Guards. -Helga and Midas could use them, but don't offer them anything.
What is really tragic is that if they'd been released yesterday without Will Work For Food then they'd be in my Arkadius list like a shot...
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Post by custardboy on Aug 24, 2017 23:00:13 GMT
It is CiD, we'll just have to look about how to make Valkyries strong. I personally don't care about shield guard, but I absolutely agree that if you want one, you would just take a free bokur. Its kinda funny that one of their 'core' abilities is one of the ones we'd want to change. I don't think PP will be open to changing that, even though Valkyries won't be good so long as they pay the tax for an ability we don't want.
Thornfall isn't good, no. If this theme stays as is I think we should ask for retaliatory strike to be changed to something for the infantry in Thornfall. Currently it is free stuff for units and benefit to beasts vs better free stuff for beasts and better benefit for beasts.
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Post by Azahul on Aug 24, 2017 23:16:02 GMT
Thornfall isn't good, no. If this theme stays as is I think we should ask for retaliatory strike to be changed to something for the infantry in Thornfall. Currently it is free stuff for units and benefit to beasts vs better free stuff for beasts and better benefit for beasts. I don't know if I agree that Valkyries should lose Shield Guard. What we need is for Thornfall to be worth playing, because then they can be Shield Guards there and the Bokurs can be Shield Guards everywhere else. But yes, absolutely agree with this. My first Arkadius lists are looking like this: Arkadius -War Hog -War Hog -War Hog -Road Hog -Road Hog -Gun Boar -Splatter Boar -Gorax -Targ Hutchuck (free) Bokur (free) Bokur (free) Orin Midwinter (free) Gobber Chef Gobber Chef Advance Move on everything bar the Gorax. Arkadius -War Hog -War Hog -Road Hog -Road Hog -Gun Boar -Gun Boar -Splatter Boar -Gorax -Gorax -Targ (free) Min Bone Grinders Hutchuck (free) Bokur (free) Bokur (free) I wonder if I want an AD solo in there to be a Turn 1 Frenzy target in case of Bottom of 1 Feats though. Could turn a Bokur into Alten Ashley or something.
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Post by gobber on Aug 25, 2017 1:26:52 GMT
One thing I did not initially realize: Valkyries are arm17 (buckler).
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Post by Azahul on Aug 25, 2017 1:33:07 GMT
Yeah, I only noticed it because I was expecting them to have Shield like Helga.
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panama
Baby's First Wargame
Posts: 9
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Post by panama on Aug 25, 2017 2:07:22 GMT
Paingiver task master gives them no knockdown, and +2 STR or Repo3... Sadly looks like other factions benefit from them more. Might be a good starting argument for getting them theme support?
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Post by custardboy on Aug 25, 2017 2:25:35 GMT
I have thought of how I would run all of the farrow warlocks if this theme exists. All would use this theme, none would use Thornfall. Midas would have bone grinders and that would be the only farrow unit represented across all 5 casters. Other people would have variations of this, but that's a pretty miserable assessment.
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Post by Azahul on Aug 25, 2017 2:39:47 GMT
I don't think Midas is a sure thing since he's spamming Farrow infantry rather than Warbeasts, but other than that I'm in much the same mood.
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Post by Gaston on Aug 25, 2017 2:42:30 GMT
Midas can substitute Nyss in for Brigands.
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Post by Azahul on Aug 25, 2017 2:44:11 GMT
Nyss can't be spammed And don't come with free Razorback Crews. I'm sure you can build him in this theme, but I think I still prefer him in Thornfall. He is the only one though. It's kind of tragic however, because I'm pretty sure Midas would be the most likely Farrow Warlock to work for food
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Post by Cryptix on Aug 25, 2017 2:46:56 GMT
Strum and Drang with a meat thresher and a couple of Valkyries could be cute. DEF 15/ARM 19 vs ranged. Only problem is you'll be depending on your beasts for any major armor cracking, which I why I want their shield cannons to get point blank.
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Post by Gaston on Aug 25, 2017 2:48:30 GMT
Maybe he is out of theme because he already brought the KFC on his back???
To test out the Valkyries, I de-optimized my list a bit (without Batreps we won't see improvments):
Midas, Thornfall Alliance -Battle Boar -Gun Boar -Gun Boar -Gun Boar -Splatter Boar Meat Thresher Rorsh -Brine Farrow Brigands (max) -Warlord (free) Farrow Commandos (min) Razorback Crew (free) Valkyries
I'm...not enthused, tbh.
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Post by Gaston on Aug 25, 2017 2:49:00 GMT
Nyss can't be spammed And don't come with free Razorback Crews. I'm sure you can build him in this theme, but I think I still prefer him in Thornfall. He is the only one though. It's kind of tragic however, because I'm pretty sure Midas would be the most likely Farrow Warlock to work for food Only need one unit for Death March.
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Post by Cryptix on Aug 25, 2017 2:49:24 GMT
I'd rather have conflictchamber.com/#cb201b_-09cUfycw0L0L0L0YeM0Ofl0OfljD___-0PbZ0L0L0L0L0YdH4kfFjDjDjDhYMinion Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] The Thornfall Alliance !!! Your army contains a CID entry. (Midas 1) Midas [+30] - Battle Boar [7] - Razor Boar (2) [7] - War Hog [15] - War Hog [15] - War Hog [15] - Targ [4] Efaarit Scouts [0(6)] Farrow Brigands (max) [15] - Farrow Brigand Warlord [0(4)] Farrow Brigands (max) [15] - Farrow Brigand Warlord [4] Farrow Valkyries [8] Minion Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Will Work for Food (CID) !!! Your army contains CID entries. !!! You are using a pre-release theme. (Sturm 1 & Drang 1) Sturm & Drang [+28] - War Hog [15] - War Hog [15] - War Hog [15] - War Hog [15] - Targ [0(4)] Gobber Tinker [2] Lanyssa Ryssyl, Nyss Sorceress [0(4)] Swamp Gobber Chef [1] Farrow Valkyries [8] Farrow Valkyries [8] Farrow Valkyries [8] Meat Thresher [16]
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Post by gobber on Aug 25, 2017 3:01:30 GMT
I do think this is the best theme for S&D, but it annoys me that Drang is made even more useless by this theme.
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