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Post by BoxyBrownMD on Aug 16, 2017 3:59:53 GMT
But why even take Jack marshalls. Just take your normal Ossrum gun bunnies list and get 4 free solos. Should net you around 20 free points. Should be the death of non-themes in merc Because, instead, you can get 12 free points of artillery, Repo 3 on Drillers and artillery, and 2 inches of deployment. Yeah, I'll take Hammerstrike.
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Post by BoxyBrownMD on Aug 16, 2017 4:09:04 GMT
Regardless, after playing a game with the list, I can definitely see it being bumped up to 30 points to constrict it to around 15ish free points, which isn't out of the ordinary compared to other theme lists. As for other armies getting generalist themes, they should not. Mercenaries as a faction was meant to be a fill in for other factions and to be a motley crew of fighters banding together, which is represented by the theme, which is no theme. Having this in any other factions besides Minions makes zero sense. As for people complaining about lazy design for Jack Marshals, having Flank now presents an option to risk outputting more damage while leaving the means to take out the jack MUCH easier. With a Mangler under a marshal, you can average kill a Khador heavy, as opposed to under a caster, which does about 24 boxes for example. If this theme stays how it is, I am not pigeonholed into running Hammerstrike Ossrum/Exulon/Kingsmaker Damiano lists and will offer ridiculous variety in Merc tournament lists.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Aug 16, 2017 4:18:58 GMT
Instead, to me seems that the dev team is going quite randomly in the last months, he does something, than suddenly changes his mind and does the opposite (often not reverting previous choices and creating disparity), then pops up with some weird badly OP idea from nothing, and so on... Um to me it seems pretty obvious to whats going on. Their changing in response to player feedback or general problems of the now. Its stabbing into the dark to see what hits, but its not Random.
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zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
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Post by zich on Aug 16, 2017 7:46:55 GMT
When a ragtag band of mercenaries from different Nations, backgrounds and with different goals fight alongside each other that's a theme. When soldiers from different branches of the same military do the same it is not. I don't get it.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Aug 16, 2017 8:12:38 GMT
Anyone who wants to make the case that PP cares/should care about non-theme forces being on par with themes need to just admit defeat at this point, I mean what more proof do you need!
Arguments about whether it is thematic aside, it does appear to be a one stop fix for Mercs being at a disadvantage to other factions. People are right to point out that Mercs will never not be played in theme, but as this one is so far reaching and all-inclusive, I would be tempted to see it as more as one of the old contracts in MK2, just with much better benefits. Or just see it as new rules for Mercs, rather than just a theme force.
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Post by Gamingdevil on Aug 16, 2017 8:37:47 GMT
PPS_Strawman1: Mercs are kind of behind the curve and they're complaining about their powerlevel. PPS_Strawman2: Ok, just give the whole faction a bunch of bonuses to bring them up to par, maybe toss in a few free models. PPS_Strawman1: We can't just do that, we would have to rewrite the entire faction! PPS_Strawman2: Fine, just disguise it as a theme and then they immediately can stop complaining about some models not getting a theme. PPS_Strawman1: Brilliant!
/sarcasm
This does make me wonder if each faction would get a "generic" theme, though hopefully without getting free points for literally everything except solos (which you can then take for free anyway)
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Aug 16, 2017 8:59:39 GMT
PPS_Strawman1: Mercs are kind of behind the curve and they're complaining about their powerlevel. PPS_Strawman2: Ok, just give the whole faction a bunch of bonuses to bring them up to par, maybe toss in a few free models. PPS_Strawman1: We can't just do that, we would have to rewrite the entire faction! PPS_Strawman2: Fine, just disguise it as a theme and then they immediately can stop complaining about some models not getting a theme. PPS_Strawman1: Brilliant! /sarcasm This does make me wonder if each faction would get a "generic" theme, though hopefully without getting free points for literally everything except solos (which you can then take for free anyway) To be fair I don't think that conversion is too far from what actually happened.
The problem PP created for themselves with Mercs is that they are not a cohesive faction,
I would be surprised if PP did not regret having made Merc Warcasters when they were coming up with MK3, as the faction does not lend itself well into the nice tightly packaged boxes/themes that other factions can be split into.
So rather than try to fit a square-merc peg into a normal faction-round hole, this is just a patch to allow people to use all their merc models like they used to in MK2, and not feel like they are playing down.
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zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
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Post by zich on Aug 16, 2017 9:08:07 GMT
this is just a patch to allow people to use all their merc models like they used to in MK2, and not feel like they are playing down. [/p]
[/quote] I don't see why other factions don't deserve the same kind of patch.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Aug 16, 2017 9:24:47 GMT
zich I don't think it is needed for the other factions, they are tight enough fluff wise that all the models in the factions can be covered by 4 or 5 themes. cygnar for example has 4 confirmed themes - Storm Division - Heavy Metal - Sons of the Tempest - Gravediggers about 95%+ of Cygnar models fit into at least one of the themes above, so PP have pretty much achieved their stated aim of 'get everything into a theme'. Mercs however because it is 'Irregular' would need probabaly about a dozen themes to fit everything in, so it needs this 'fix' to get everything into a theme
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tanan
Junior Strategist
Posts: 209
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Post by tanan on Aug 16, 2017 9:27:39 GMT
Yes, exactly like this theme makes other merc themes almost obsolete. I strongly disagree. Each merc theme force have their merits and flaws.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Aug 16, 2017 9:53:05 GMT
zich I don't think it is needed for the other factions, they are tight enough fluff wise that all the models in the factions can be covered by 4 or 5 themes. cygnar for example has 4 confirmed themes - Storm Division - Heavy Metal - Sons of the Tempest - Gravediggers about 95%+ of Cygnar models fit into at least one of the themes above, so PP have pretty much achieved their stated aim of 'get everything into a theme'. Mercs however because it is 'Irregular' would need probabaly about a dozen themes to fit everything in, so it needs this 'fix' to get everything into a theme Maybe for Cygnar that works - especially since most of your themes have most or all of your core support pieces - but for, say, Circle, it doesn't. When Sentry Stones (the only decent non caster-specific anti-shooting tech in the faction), blackclads (the only threat extension/source of free charges in the faction,) wilder (only proactive fury management in the faction,) and gallows grove (the only arc node in the faction, barring Cassius) are only in one theme each, a generic theme gets a whole lot more appealing. Doesn't help that PP nerfed the everloving crap out of Shifting Stones (which apparently ARE the only thing we can count on in all themes) to the point where in the lists I DO take them, they end up being a point filler rather than a staple choice, barring some very specific circumstances (Loki or a Fulcrum.) Also, having a theme for everything =/= having a good theme for everything, or a theme that supports all of the synergies a unit has to offer (like irregulars does.) To go back to Circle again, living beasts are already in 2/3 themes, but because they're not the basis for free points, you really can't say they 'have a theme.' I, for one, welcome our generic theme overlords (well, actually, I'd like to see free points go away altogether, if everyone can just have them at all times, but barring that...)
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Aug 16, 2017 9:58:39 GMT
zich I don't think it is needed for the other factions, they are tight enough fluff wise that all the models in the factions can be covered by 4 or 5 themes. cygnar for example has 4 confirmed themes - Storm Division - Heavy Metal - Sons of the Tempest - Gravediggers about 95%+ of Cygnar models fit into at least one of the themes above, so PP have pretty much achieved their stated aim of 'get everything into a theme'. Mercs however because it is 'Irregular' would need probabaly about a dozen themes to fit everything in, so it needs this 'fix' to get everything into a theme Maybe for Cygnar that works - especially since most of your themes have most or all of your core support pieces - but for, say, Circle, it doesn't. When Sentry Stones (the only decent non caster-specific anti-shooting tech in the faction), blackclads (the only threat extension/source of free charges in the faction,) wilder (only proactive fury management in the faction,) and gallows grove (the only arc node in the faction, barring Cassius) are only in one theme each, a generic theme gets a whole lot more appealing. Doesn't help that PP nerfed the everloving crap out of Shifting Stones (which apparently ARE the only thing we can count on in all themes) to the point where in the lists I DO take them, they end up being a point filler rather than a staple choice, barring some very specific circumstances (Loki or a Fulcrum.) Also, having a theme for everything =/= having a good theme for everything, or a theme that supports all of the synergies a unit has to offer (like irregulars does.) To go back to Circle again, living beasts are already in 2/3 themes, but because they're not the basis for free points, you really can't say they 'have a theme.' I, for one, welcome our generic theme overlords (well, actually, I'd like to see free points go away altogether, if everyone can just have them at all times, but barring that...) I would be in favour of Circle (and all factions) potentially getting key support pieces like Blackclad Wayfarers and Gallows Groves available to them in all themes, I agree it does not make sense when such key pieces that the faction has been designed around are omitted for seemingly arbitrary reasons. Which I why I would like to see the Squire included in Sons of the Tempest and Gravediggers
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Post by jisidro on Aug 16, 2017 10:55:19 GMT
I like this theme, it's not fluffy and is only cool rulewise...
BUT
- It's a theme that puts mercs back as a faction (with it's own idiosyncrasies) - It enables merc list construction - Gives what appear to be non-broken benefits (I'm sure some combo will appear to have a shot go into the opposing deploy...)
What I don't like is the endless boat of free points, this one maxes out at Eyriss(7) + Acosta (6) + Alten (6) + Hutchuk (6) for 25pts... The 5pts options are probably better Orin/Kell and I'm sure Sylys will be taken as well... For a "modest" 7+5+5+4 benefit of 21pts...
How many points will the last theme to be released give out? 30? 40? 50?
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Aug 16, 2017 10:58:39 GMT
A Jack Marshalled Mangler will be pretty spicy, free charge, Crush and Flank, gives it 2 x mat 8 pow 20 weaponmaster attacks, one of which is boosted damage, and a mat 8 pow 18 weaponmaster attack.
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zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
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Post by zich on Aug 16, 2017 11:43:57 GMT
It's not about whether or not it's needed. Mercs are getting to play their Mk2 lists. I want in on that too. Simple and selfish.
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