Haight
Junior Strategist
Posts: 396
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Post by Haight on Aug 15, 2017 23:38:02 GMT
Well, themes jumping the shark this edition took a whole hell of a lot less time than i thought they would.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Aug 16, 2017 0:03:07 GMT
Well, themes jumping the shark this edition took a whole hell of a lot less time than i thought they would. Watcha mean by that?
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Post by Cryptix on Aug 16, 2017 0:24:25 GMT
Well, themes jumping the shark this edition took a whole hell of a lot less time than i thought they would. Watcha mean by that? This is literally not a theme by any definition of the word, as it has no restrictions, no common features, no fluffy benefits...
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Aug 16, 2017 0:29:34 GMT
This is literally not a theme by any definition of the word, as it has no restrictions, no common features, no fluffy benefits... I know the mercenary selection is not a theme, but in terms of abilities, its very much mechanically focused towards warjacks and the people who run them. The question is if this is how to resolve the issue...Hmm. Worthwhile bringing up.
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Aug 16, 2017 0:42:27 GMT
This is literally not a theme by any definition of the word, as it has no restrictions, no common features, no fluffy benefits... But... the theme of this theme is the lack of cohesion in the Mercenary faction. So, really there's nothing more thematic for these Mercs than a Theme with no discernible thematic whole.
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Post by gobber on Aug 16, 2017 0:45:17 GMT
Well there was always going to be a very permissive four star syndicate replacement theme. Also, the mishmash of irregulars is kinda key to mercs' identity in a way no other faction can claim. Kinda surprised to see people acting as if this is the death of themes...
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Aug 16, 2017 0:54:44 GMT
Well there was always going to be a very permissive four star syndicate replacement theme. Also, the mishmash of irregulars is kinda key to mercs' identity in a way no other faction can claim. Kinda surprised to see people acting as if this is the death of themes... It really isn't the death of all themes. Mercs needed themes to fit characters like Eiryss, Sam Machorne, Alexia, and all manner of solos. A super generic theme is kinda necessary. I wouldn't mind it being tightened up a bit though. It doesn't need Rhulic or Privateers in the theme.
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Post by gobber on Aug 16, 2017 1:00:36 GMT
Well there was always going to be a very permissive four star syndicate replacement theme. Also, the mishmash of irregulars is kinda key to mercs' identity in a way no other faction can claim. Kinda surprised to see people acting as if this is the death of themes... It really isn't the death of all themes. Mercs needed themes to fit characters like Eiryss, Sam Machorne, Alexia, and all manner of solos. A super generic theme is kinda necessary. I wouldn't mind it being tightened up a bit though. It doesn't need Rhulic or Privateers in the theme. The rhulic/pirate stuff is absolutely necessary so dwarves can play with humans, fiona with anything notpirate, etc. Right now this is the only way to pull of the old Agents of Jhord, or things like Gorten+pressgangers. I would also like to have a theme where the human casters have the option to run hammerdwarves, etc. All of this was possible under the four star contract. The old four star contract for reference, which is nearly identical to this theme's selection: battlecollege.wikispaces.com/Four+Star+Syndicate
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Post by trollslayer on Aug 16, 2017 1:01:18 GMT
Also, couldn't you just take the lesser 'locks as your free solo options? I made a 'jack heavy Magnus list that let me take all four, theoretically.
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Post by gobber on Aug 16, 2017 1:03:23 GMT
Also, couldn't you just take the lesser 'locks as your free solo options? I made a 'jack heavy Magnus list that let me take all four, theoretically. Oh no no no it is "free solo without the lesser warlock rule." But yes you can pay for them and minions will shortly be getting a counterpart theme focused on the lessers and beasts.
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Post by Aegis on Aug 16, 2017 1:29:00 GMT
Another lazy choice... It's the whole 2017 that PP aligns lazy choices after lazy choices...
A lot of people asked for "generic themes", even with much less bonuses, and PP always said they were out of discussion.
Than what does she do? She releases a generic theme with tons of bonuses, a lot more significant than restricting themes usual bonuses...
I really can't understand them anymore... How it is supposed to be balanced versus other mercs themes? It gives bonus points for everything, so you are basically getting always 4 free models (more than what you get with most restricting themes).
Not only that, but it also gives pretty big bonuses to warjacks, combining both advanced move and flank...
Finally, it adapts perfectly into the new SR2017, being a theme that encourages mixed armies that can score all types of objectives and zones...
The only balancing factor is that it doesn't allow non-mercs models, but doing this theme means that every other merc theme, to be vaguely interesting, has to give access to very powerful out of faction models to compete with a theme that allows the whole faction and gives tons of benefits...
Honestly, with all this theme forces thing, PP is really making an huge mess.
P.S.: I'm already hearing the screams of every other faction wanting a generic "theme" like that, and honestly I can't blame them. It's quite unfair for only mercenaries to be able to build practically out of theme but getting theme benefits (and big ones at that) on the top of it, while all others are forced to either play a restricted list of models or getting far behind playing out-of-theme.
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Post by macdaddy on Aug 16, 2017 1:49:21 GMT
Aegis I really hope not a single other faction gets a theme like this. It would make just about every other theme obsolete.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Aug 16, 2017 1:52:01 GMT
Another lazy choice... It's the whole 2017 that PP aligns lazy choices after lazy choices... A lot of people asked for "generic themes", even with much less bonuses, and PP always said they were out of discussion. Than what does she do? She releases a generic theme with tons of bonuses, a lot more significant than restricting themes usual bonuses... I really can't understand them anymore... How it is supposed to be balanced versus other mercs themes? It gives bonus points for everything, so you are basically getting always 4 free models (more than what you get with most restricting themes). Not only that, but it also gives pretty big bonuses to warjacks, combining both advanced move and flank... Finally, it adapts perfectly into the new SR2017, being a theme that encourages mixed armies that can score all types of objectives and zones... The only balancing factor is that it doesn't allow non-mercs models, but doing this theme means that every other merc theme, to be vaguely interesting, has to give access to very powerful out of faction models to compete with a theme that allows the whole faction and gives tons of benefits... Honestly, with all this theme forces thing, PP is really making an huge mess. P.S.: I'm already hearing the screams of every other faction wanting a generic "theme" like that, and honestly I can't blame them. It's quite unfair for only mercenaries to be able to build practically out of theme but getting theme benefits (and big ones at that) on the top of it, while all others are forced to either play a restricted list of models or getting far behind playing out-of-theme. I mean, yes? I don't see a reason why it's more acceptable for mercs to play all their stuff together than any other faction. Not even from just a rules perspective, from a fluff perspective as well. I know people talk about mercs being a 'collection of irregulars' but honestly if anything that's a reason for them NOT to have a massive overarching theme that includes everything. They're distinct models and units with distinct fluff and very different agendas, whereas for say, Retribution, everyone in the faction is a member of the same genocidal death cult. Convergence is a literal secret cult. Circle is a secret organization that shares the same goals and Hierarchy. Cygnar models are all part of the same military. And so on - there are political/means-ends differences, but they share the same essential goals, unlike, say, pirates and rhul. There's no real reason that any of those models shouldn't work together, but the current state of thememachine means they usually can't. Personally, my preference would be to see free model/points removed all together - it would be a fairer way to go about building lists, since as it stands some themes can get waaaay more free stuff than others (I think this theme tops out at 23 points of free stuff, while, say, devourer's host tops out at 15.) However, I'd support this generic theme approach over keeping themes as they are now and hiving off entire sections of the faction so they effectively can't be played together.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Aug 16, 2017 1:54:14 GMT
Aegis I really hope not a single other faction gets a theme like this. It would make just about every other theme obsolete. I'm the opposite. Completely on board for generic themes, though I'd hope to see them less powerful than this one. So tired of having list building constrained to formulaic theme lists that practically build themselves.
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Post by Aegis on Aug 16, 2017 3:05:54 GMT
Aegis I really hope not a single other faction gets a theme like this. It would make just about every other theme obsolete. Yes, exactly like this theme makes other merc themes almost obsolete. That without even counting how obsolete it makes to play out of theme in mercs, since you basically have the option to play out of theme and gets free benefits. Again, I don't really like the themes approach and the tons of free models, but at least if you decide something, remain coherent with it... Instead, to me seems that the dev team is going quite randomly in the last months, he does something, than suddenly changes his mind and does the opposite (often not reverting previous choices and creating disparity), then pops up with some weird badly OP idea from nothing, and so on... I really don't understand them anymore. I'm sad to have to say this, since I don't like to judge other people work, but the more proposals I see, and the more I think that the dev team needs to be at least reorganized (with new leadership) or at worst replaced. It saddens me since I like some of them as persons (like Hungerford), but honestly it seems to me that the quality of their work is really going down lately, and the only things that keeps everything from falling down is CID where the worst non-sense gets dealt with by the community, but most thing proposed in CID (or things that come out without even passing from it) seem very bad and lazy works lately, when they used to be great in the past.
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