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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Aug 1, 2017 21:27:26 GMT
Putting words in his mouth? He literally did not mention anything about Bastions being a "defensive option." He says they're being one-hit-killed by something 1/3 to 1/4 its cost.. Well if you wanna play it that way you're also putting words into his mouth because he said nothing about 1/3 or 1/4 the cost. The exact words were "super cheap infantry". The super cheap infantry part came second, after explaining how even an average trooper model damage shreds a bastion on a charge.
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Post by chillychinaman on Aug 1, 2017 22:20:59 GMT
Its really not. You have to consider that usually one wound models get over killed by multiple points of damage. A basic infantry model's attack is usually p+s 10-11. A charging p+s11 attack does an average of 5.5 damage to arm16. So basically 50:50 for a super cheap infantry model to oneshot a bastion 3-4 times his point cost. Those extra 4 hit points aren't buying you much. Okay Rowdy, now you're being blind. "So basically 50:50 for a super cheap infantry model to oneshot a bastion 3-4 times his point cost." At this point, I'm done. Anyway, back to topic. Hypothetically, if the Vanquisher were to get reduced to ~15pts, how would that affect its comparison to the Reckoner? The Reckoner is still stronger in melee, faster, brings support from flare, and has Ashen Veil. In contrast, the Vanquisher has...AoE3 and Thresher? I'm not saying that the Reckoner is too cheap, but I think the Vanquisher is kinda stuck being either too expensive in its current state or a really efficient all-rounder it its points were to drop substantially.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Aug 1, 2017 22:26:23 GMT
Okay Rowdy, now you're being blind. Indeed I am. I apologize. Still stand by what I said, but I apologize.
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Post by Mydnight on Aug 1, 2017 22:46:49 GMT
The Vanquisher is attractive for casters that can boost its accuracy or who can make it shoot again. At 15 points I'd say it's 'okay'. It's not as if the Reckoner is a steal. We just don't have great non-character heavies. With the Revelator and Redeemer around the Vanquisher's gun is seriously overpriced unless it gained range or burning ground. I'd rather the gun get boosted than the melee output increased. We do melee quite well already. Or they could just change the choir to be +1/+1 and then everything will be okay Anyway, back to topic. Hypothetically, if the Vanquisher were to get reduced to ~15pts, how would that affect its comparison to the Reckoner? The Reckoner is still stronger in melee, faster, brings support from flare, and has Ashen Veil. In contrast, the Vanquisher has...AoE3 and Thresher? I'm not saying that the Reckoner is too cheap, but I think the Vanquisher is kinda stuck being either too expensive in its current state or a really efficient all-rounder it its points were to drop substantially.
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spideredd
Junior Strategist
Summer Gamer
Posts: 588
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Post by spideredd on Aug 1, 2017 23:04:48 GMT
Anyway, back to topic. Hypothetically, if the Vanquisher were to get reduced to ~15pts, how would that affect its comparison to the Reckoner? The Reckoner is still stronger in melee, faster, brings support from flare, and has Ashen Veil. In contrast, the Vanquisher has...AoE3 and Thresher? I'm not saying that the Reckoner is too cheap, but I think the Vanquisher is kinda stuck being either too expensive in its current state or a really efficient all-rounder it its points were to drop substantially. I honestly think that the Vanquisher is a victim of the meta; it's a dedicated troop-killer in a meta where troops are just emerging. I don't think that range is the issue because I've gotten good use out of it having a 10" shot since MKI, and that's usually against Cygnar. Maybe drop the cost by one or give the gun reload[1] or even both and it looks more attractive. I've also been thinking about the Castigator and I think that it needs to lose the * action on Combust and have it replaced with "Spend one focus at any point during this models activation to activate this effect once per round" (clunky wording, I know, but there are models that can do similar effects) as it sort of solves the "can't combust on a charge" problem and allows you to make your initials (or even a power attack) once you've done it.
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thelat
Junior Strategist
Posts: 480
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Post by thelat on Aug 1, 2017 23:47:48 GMT
Point of order: The Vanquisher has AOE 4 and range 2 on his thresher weapon. I think he's overcosted, but both of those are big.
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Post by Swampmist on Aug 2, 2017 0:03:14 GMT
The vanquisher's issue is being our lowest damage heavy, and not being all that better than a dervish for 10 points more. +1 pow, reload [1], rng 12, more support rules, point decrease. Any 2 of these would be enough to probably let him see fringe play.
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Post by Mydnight on Aug 2, 2017 0:04:50 GMT
Point of order: The Vanquisher has AOE 4 and range 2 on his thresher weapon. I think he's overcosted, but both of those are big. Thresher on a mat 6 jack is overrated. AoE 4 on a rat 5 rng 10 spd 4 jack is also overrated. Sure the jack is fine, but it doesn't beat stick as well as the reckoner, nor can it threat as far. The Hand of Judgement actually threats further with way better stats for +1 point.
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Post by Mydnight on Aug 2, 2017 0:06:59 GMT
The vanquisher's issue is being our lowest damage heavy, and not being all that better than a dervish for 10 points more. +1 pow, reload [1], rng 12, more support rules, point decrease. Any 2 of these would be enough to probably let him see fringe play. Now that you mention it, I'd rather just take a dervish and a redeemer than a vanquisher. Power up and independent activations. The dervish may be nerfed in a CiD though.
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Post by chillychinaman on Aug 2, 2017 0:07:28 GMT
The Vanquisher is attractive for casters that can boost its accuracy or who can make it shoot again. At 15 points I'd say it's 'okay'. It's not as if the Reckoner is a steal. We just don't have great non-character heavies. With the Revelator and Redeemer around the Vanquisher's gun is seriously overpriced unless it gained range or burning ground. I'd rather the gun get boosted than the melee output increased. We do melee quite well already. Or they could just change the choir to be +1/+1 and then everything will be okay Aren't the only ones who can boost its accuracy Sevy1, Kreoss1, 3eoss, and Malekus? Not exactly a extensive roster. And Only Kreoss can give it an extra shot. How many points would you make the Reckoner given the chance? How would the Vanquisher be costed in comparison? And finally, I too think that reload[1] would be a step in the right direction for it. P.S. If it was an honest mistake, all's well Rowdy. Let's continue our agreement to disagree.
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Post by Mydnight on Aug 2, 2017 0:34:28 GMT
Aren't the only ones who can boost its accuracy Sevy1, Kreoss1, 3eoss, and Malekus? Not exactly a extensive roster. And Only Kreoss can give it an extra shot. How many points would you make the Reckoner given the chance? How would the Vanquisher be costed in comparison? And finally, I too think that reload[1] would be a step in the right direction for it. P.S. If it was an honest mistake, all's well Rowdy. Let's continue our agreement to disagree. The reckoner is fine, he's just not a 'steal'. He'd be a steal at 15 points. But as is he's already our dominant non-character heavy. Which just shows the quality of our heavies. I mean, 2 dervishes at 14 points and no focus drain have comparable melee output to a fully loaded reckoner, not even counting parry and side-step. The vanquisher is a good 14 point jack. At 15 he'd be 'okay'.
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blakeh1
Junior Strategist
Posts: 181
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Post by blakeh1 on Aug 2, 2017 0:49:59 GMT
actually for the Reckoner I think it should be able to ignore Stealth, or at least make the Flare an AOE effect (similar to the Convergence jack)
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on Aug 2, 2017 1:53:44 GMT
The vanquisher's issue is being our lowest damage heavy, and not being all that better than a dervish for 10 points more. +1 pow, reload [1], rng 12, more support rules, point decrease. Any 2 of these would be enough to probably let him see fringe play. Now that you mention it, I'd rather just take a dervish and a redeemer than a vanquisher. Power up and independent activations. The dervish may be nerfed in a CiD though. On what grounds? That the protectorate actually has a shiny? it's the most fragile jack in the faction tied with the purifier. Let it be stabby or it will be dusty.
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demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
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Post by demonic on Aug 2, 2017 2:27:10 GMT
because the vanquisher doesn't have a shield, it's pretty much just as fluffy as the dervish. Adding the redeemer into the mix, means you have a ranged AoE and a parrying combo attack that's just as strong as the vanquishers, only since they are split they both can attack on the same turn instead of choosing between ranged or melee attacks. This is why people were mentioning the "reload" option, as it gives him the ability to attack just as often as the redeemer and the dervish. On the other hand, however, I'd probably prefer to go crusader dervish and not suffer the one point loss. When piece trading, the crusader is a highly valid jack that can hold his own. The dervish can dice up whatever finishes off the crusader. The purifier is more effective than he looks, so don't look down on him too much. especially with infantry coming back and everyone crying for shield and buckler bonus', he'll become much, much better, especially on Amon's force where he gains parry. All he has to do is touch bases to ignite things on fire x.x;
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Post by paradox on Aug 2, 2017 3:29:44 GMT
The vanquisher is not bad, but it's also not better than a reckoner. That's for sure.
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