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Post by djgibraltar on Jul 23, 2017 2:18:37 GMT
Here is my list of things i think need tweaks big and small for menoth to be a fun and competitive faction. Let me know what you all think. This could become a quick guide to what we are looking to test or get modified whenever we get a shot at cid`s. Long Post incoming
THEMES
**Guardians: to start for fluff reasons alone and also to partially answer the lack of hard hitting issue. Blood of Martyrs, Hand of Judgment, Eye of Truth should all be available. Those 3 jacks are just an overgrown daughter of the flame, cleanser, and flameguard. more importantly. i think having the possibility of malekeus + hand of judgment in at least one theme is important. out of all the character jack restrictions. i find this one the most punishing.
**Creator`s Might: simple. do something about the choir counting for pts or being able to take a min choir as a free choice and were golden. don`t taunt me with the possibility of 4 free solo`s (and non expensive ones at that unlike other factions) but never really allowing me to achieve it but with very few casters.
**Exemplar theme: replace blessed weapons. it is a cornercase ability which we have other ways of getting already. and its in a troop theme which will usually only run 2 jacks. replace or keep and add another buff like maybe anti magic on my jacks as well as blessed. O and add fire of salvation
**Martyr`s theme: add blessing of vengeance and Scourge of Heresy. btw i believe all character jacks and beast in the game should get similar treatment of belonging to at least one theme.
CASTER
**Entire Roster: ill let you guys debate. i think all 3 feora`s have issues. the rest of our caster pool i think is in a solid place. maybe kreoss 2, harbinger`s feat, and malekeus needs a hit buff. his army tops out at rat 6 with only flare and scourge.
JACKS
**Judicator: Not sure what specifically but i think what the judicator needs is no innacurate to start and some sort of other utility ability like many colossals have to support the army. I think it would not be OP either to make the aoe`s on revelator gun always be aoe`s. not only on direct hit.
**Avatar: If he counted in bg points i think he would be fine. He is close to being a great jack. His kit is not the issue. with the state the game is in. would it be that op if because he counted in bg pts he would allow some casters to run without any focus strain from jacks because they are running the avatar and a support light. also with the fact that jacks are the name of the game. making him count in bg pts will just make our math easier when figuring out what jacks we want if the avatar is one of them because we will still take multiples most likely.
**other jacks: for purifier, repenter, revenger, guardian, indictor, sanctifier would be all they need to see more play. last 3 are closer to good but i think a 1 pt reduction makes them much more compelling.
UNITS
**choir of menoth: with the prevalence of magic guns thus making our no shooty song less relevant. would bringing back the +2 hit be that OP. this is probably the one im least sure about.
**skyhammers: ive long debated about this unit with a friend. they are hard to buff. buff the hit or damage too much and with combined at 21`` they can quickly become oppressive. Not sure how to fix them.
**Flameguard: they either need an additional defensive tech or a bit more punch. brutal charge or bring back at least the auto fire with ua.
**Bastions: 8 boxes and no range limit to sanguine bond + an offensive buff of some kind. they remain 5 attacks for 16 pts. blessed weaponmaster or not. its not enough.
**Cinerators: same deal. 8 boxes. just with that. they might be ok. maybe another small buff. a 6 inch flamer with assault would be interesting.
**idrians: do something about the skornergy between their mini feat and repo. yes our best unit. but that interaction really gets my gears grinding.
**Zealots: i actually haven`t used them so im not completely sure. but they do seem to need a buff of some kind. ill let others say what they think
**Errants + solo and ua: so fix the skornergy between assault for weaponmasters that have a good chance of killing their target already. also unyielding. also the mini feat being trash. I think make them 1 `` reach. that means the unyielding is way better. give them back quickwork. it was really a fitting ability. maybe quickwork as a mini feat
SOLOS
**Covenant: 10``. this is the other buff that im not sure is needed.
**Vilmon and crew: even if they get retaliatory strike from champion. they still need something else. More hp. More base armor. make them take some actual work to kill. its really nice to have a million possible attacks from righteous fury and retaliatory. but if they die super easy. it is irrelevant. same with vilmon. but also vilmon needs minimum 2 attacks again. forget shield guard. replace with rapid strike or something else.
**Vassal: i want ancillary attack back. In mk3. i don`t think it would be op to get this back. other factions have it. why the hell would the original faction that had it no longer have it. that makes no sense. if that is too strong which is another im not sure about. then we still need something. right now he is taken a lot but i feel underwhelmed by him.
**Deliverer Arms Master: all 3 of his buffs (which need to be reworked) should affect all our aoe guns, not just deliverers, to give him more appel across the faction.
**Attendant Priest: He stinks. Let`s be honest. Not only are we unlikely to take merc units as their isnt a need. His buffs are lame. in a thread someone mentioned he would be more interesting as an attachment that could also attach himself to one of our own units. and rework the buffs he gives.
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thelat
Junior Strategist
Posts: 480
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Post by thelat on Jul 23, 2017 2:50:24 GMT
I don't think you understand the importance of theme forces restricting your options.
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on Jul 23, 2017 4:23:21 GMT
I love these threads! nothing will change from them, but wishlisting is nice to fill some hours with.
THEMES
**Guardians: I'm of the opinions "let the meta sort this one out". sure, they're featherweights in the hitting department, but function very well into all the other troop based themes as troops rarely need high POW. I do recommend losing the third solo for an extra warjack or two to handle armor.
**Creator`s Might: This isn't simple at all, but in the end I'm unsure it needs, or even could get, a buff using the models available. the best way to buff the theme would actually be to allow temple flameguard into it to screen, but currently I think CID is going to let people use steelheads at the same cost.
**Exemplar theme: I agree on adding FoS, and blessed warjack weaponry needs to go. My new benefits of choice would be: battle driven stacks with itself, per hit OR medium based exemplar models get unit-wide hyper aggressive.
**Martyr`s theme: what is this? has it been spoiled (I haven't kept up with current CID)?
CASTER
Testament needs another schtick to go with resurrecting dudes. it's not as good as current recursion, the models he recurses aren't as good, and he does very little else. But everyone else is picking up rfp.
Reznik 1 needs FOC 7, or at least a special rule casting at accuracy 7.
Feora 2 needs a field marshal. Fuel for the flames would likely be overpowered, but awesome. Otherwise, I could see free charges while on fire.
JACKS
**Judicator: I'll be bluntly honest: I watched 40K groups shatter over colossal being too good and want them to suck. Instead the BE overhaul glued a bunch of rules and boxes to pretty much all of them for free. They make me nervous for the game's Health when they're better than "Meh, it looks cool I guess".
**Avatar: BG points and a bit cheaper, seeing as free focus isn't what it used to be.
**other jacks: Purifier needs 1 of: fuel for the Flames, Caustic Prescence, or aura of removal of fire immunity (grymkin get AOE grievous, this CAN happen).
Vanquisher needs the demolisher treatment, 2 points less.
The rest are actually fine.
UNITS
**choir of menoth: Choir is fine. Magical weaponry isn't more prevalent, just more spoken of in the forums because we literally don't even notice much of the rest.
**skyhammers: I want extra dice on large and huge bases, but mandatory CRA. Maybe cheaper if that isn't enough.
**Flameguard: I think these guys work just fine, TBH.
**Bastions: Bastions need a full scale overhaul right down to intended use. Lets wait for the CID on that one.
**Cinerators: nah, just 2 points cheaper. they compete with sanctifiers, not reckoners.
**idrians: are you aware they can run, have the leader activate last, pop his feat before running(he won't get it though), and deliver themselves that way?
**Zealots: just a bit cheaper. They can basically auto-hit, respawn and still act, etc. They're better than people give them credit for, they just don't have a theme.
**Errants + solo and ua: All these guys truly need is not to pop their own buffs off themselves. If that happens we can work on the rest.
SOLOS
**Covenant: a full 10 is too big. I'd say 7.
**Vilmon and crew: I want sturdy and drag immunity b2b, without stancing. Make them anchors for the army against drag shenanigans.
**Vassal: I'm still satisfied. I just use them as another focus battery anyway.
**Deliverer Arms Master: He's fine affecting only deliverers, he just needs to affect the entire unit so they can CRA past LOS.
**Attendant Priest: no comment.
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Post by djgibraltar on Jul 23, 2017 5:43:55 GMT
I agree with many of your statements.
**martyr`s theme i meant the zealots and deliverers theme
**i love your idea for the purifier to give it a role. either caustic or remove immunity
**forgot the vanquisher but ya it could use a pts decrease as well. its good. just a bit expensive.
**i am also a bit tired and afraid of the continuing colossal / garg meta and overall the not troop meta
**for idrians. i realize that. i meant shoot, repo, then diggin would be nice. instead of one or the other. i understand its meant as choices but this one just grates me. dont get me wrong. they are fine as is. this is more me then them needing any kind of change.
**for covenant i was also starting to think a middle ground between 5 and 10 **
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Post by chillychinaman on Jul 23, 2017 5:52:18 GMT
Burst fire, I think that's the rule, is a rather elegant buff for Deliverers. 3 POW15s against jacks is kinda nice as long as they get arcing fire to line up shots. Maybe a special version that buffs RAT in addition to damage for RAT3 before CRA and aiming.
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Post by djgibraltar on Jul 23, 2017 6:06:47 GMT
i agree burst fire is elegant.
arcing fire is a must. arms master should grant it to either one model or unit. that way he could give all the deliverers or zealots arcing fire. or to any of our aoe jacks. would make him interesting in a lot more lists. also he should grant reroll on attack or damage to whole unit of deliverers not just one model. this i think would fix both the arms master and the deliverers in a nice way.
also just realized he has tough. can someone explain to me why a deliverer arms master would have tough. what in the fluff makes you think they would have it. lol. weird
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Post by greytemplar on Jul 23, 2017 17:13:56 GMT
He has tough because all the artillery solos have tough.
As for changes that are needed.
Purifier: Fuel for the flames. Gives him an actual role instead of being a worse dervish.
Heavy Infantry: 8 boxes back. Or give Bastions Impervious Flesh and Cinerators shield wall or battle driven.
Vengers: 3 points cheaper
Indictor: change aura to read ''Friendly faction warrior models within 5" cannot be targeted by spells''
Avatar: immune to disruption. D3+2 focus instead of D3+1.
Knights Exemplar: UA 1 point cheaper
Zealots: 2 points cheaper. UA 1 point cheaper
Temple Flame guard: 2 points cheaper. More UAs for variants.
Deliverers: ammo types and cheaper.
A new unit that can hand out oil.
Something that can turn off Fire immunity.
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Post by droopingpuppy on Jul 23, 2017 18:33:09 GMT
For Bastions and Cinerators.... I have think about these changes. Bastions: -Reduce the point cost by 9/14 -Remove Blessed on concecrated halberd -Increase the POW on concecrated halberd by 2(making P+S 13) -Add Sturdy-Add Wall of SteelWith this, I hope that Bastions are become the better armor cracker, as well as able to withstand the enemy fire better. ARM 18 is still somewhat questionable defense for the unit with damage box, as Trollkin Champions does, though. Perhaps Carapace would be the better solution than Wall of Steel? In my experience to against them, a barrage of weak ranged attacks is the best solution to obliterate them, for ranged attacks can choose any of them easily and each attacks cause less damage so it degrades the usefulness of Sanguine Bond. If they are in melee they are really hard to remove, for you can divide the damage to the others. Cinerators: -Reduce the point cost by 9/14 -Reduce the RNG of blazing sword by 1
-Add Blessed on blazing sword. -Add Ashen Veil-Raise their RAT by 6, give them a SP6 POW 10 ranged weapon with Damage Type: Fire and Damage Type: Magical, and give them Assault. I was always think that(even in MKII) it is Cinerators that should get Blessed on their weapon, because they are more toward the offensive. Also someone said about shoot the flame on their weapons. However, are they able to withstand the enemy shootings? RNG 1 is painful for you, but not so worse than RNG 0.5 in MKII. I don't think that Ashen Veil does much, but unlike Set Defense on Bastions RAT is generally lower than MAT by 1 so it may have a diffrence. Also it seems themetic to add it to them because of their blazing sword. Anyway, it seems that they are hard to balance if they keep 5 damage box. Can't they simply take back 8 points of damage box again? Else they have to be more cheaper or have more points on ARM.
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Post by Arch4ngel on Jul 23, 2017 20:51:10 GMT
Just some thoughts:
On Themes in general, I couldn't disagree more strongly about all character jacks being in at least one theme. With the tournament restrictions on characters getting lifted, we were seeing the same character jacks in every single list ever, and it was stupid. These are supposed to be unique entities in the world of the Iron Kingdoms, who have accrued "personalities" due to prolonged exposure to the mind of a particular warcaster, and now they're being loaned out to everyone, for everything, all the time? That has always been a major pet peeve of mine with the game, and they kinda fixed it, finally. Not interested in taking a step back.
More specifically, Creator's Might needs at least one combat troop option. Thanks to the new SR2017 zones, it might as well be totally blank in its current incarnation. Might be mitigated by the "can include mercs" thing they're considering, but that's the LEAST theme-appropriate solution POSSIBLE.
On casters, Feora2, Kreoss2, and Tristan2 need some help. Everyone else is in a pretty decent spot, IMO. (And I disagree, resurrecting dudes is AMAZING, especially at the rate Testament can do it.)
On jacks * +1 to Avatar Disruption immunity. Grr. * I like the Indictor how he is. Don't change his ability to neuter channeling.
Troops... OH MAN.
* Agreed that Bastions need a complete re-write, but specifically with an eye to defensive capability. Our offensive heavy infantry shouldn't be tankier than our defensive heavy infantry. * TFG could use an extra POW or 2 on their weapons, but SR2017 has given us a use for units that do nothing but not die again, so they might not be a complete waste of points anymore. * Deliverer Skyhammers are supposed to be an inaccurate bombard unit, right? They're not SUPPOSED to hit troops directly, so what if you gave them a 5" AOE, or perhaps a unit-wide debuff on hit to reflect the dudes who survived diving for cover? (e.g. -spd or no orders) You could even give them a strange point cost (like 8/16) to reflect the potentially stupid blast damage from CRA. * Vengers just need to lose the Close Combat rule on their swords. Accidentally killing the charge target with impact attacks, and then not getting a real attack has actually cost me a game.
On solos, I think we're in a pretty good spot. The Attendant Priest in particular is very solid exactly as he is.
Finally, RE: Garg/Colossal/Non-troop Meta, get used to it. They've always wanted a game where the big stompy robots got center stage, and now they have it. It's not going away anytime soon. They ARE doing some really interesting things with SR2017 to make units important even though the balance doesn't favor them, and I'm intrigued as hell to see how that works out. On paper, it looks like a brilliant solution.
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Post by Mydnight on Jul 23, 2017 23:57:27 GMT
Do we know if the exemplar theme will go through proper CID? That will ensure Bastions have a good chance of changing soon.
PP needs to retrofit all existing themes now with a character jack and mercenary allowance.
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on Jul 24, 2017 0:29:46 GMT
Do we know if the exemplar theme will go through proper CID? That will ensure Bastions have a good chance of changing soon. PP needs to retrofit all existing themes now with a character jack and mercenary allowance. an exemlar CID was confirmed. I think it was late fall, but I really don't remember why I think that.
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Post by Swampmist on Jul 24, 2017 0:48:00 GMT
I had originally suspected late fall, but the keynote largely dashed those hopes
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thelat
Junior Strategist
Posts: 480
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Post by thelat on Jul 24, 2017 18:40:31 GMT
I think the Cinerators would be good if we could get them to drop a point of armor, gain shield wall, and Righteous Flames.
Cryptix had a good idea with making the Bastions all heal d3 when a member of their unit dies.
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Post by gargs454 on Jul 24, 2017 19:14:08 GMT
Cryptix had a good idea with making the Bastions all heal d3 when a member of their unit dies. Hmmm, that is interesting. Might make Sanguine Bond worth something then. Only real threat then would be aoe's or thresher type attacks. Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought it is an Exemplar CID that was confirmed, but not necessarily an Exemplar Theme CID. Granted, the one can help the other, but still.
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on Jul 24, 2017 19:18:25 GMT
Cryptix had a good idea with making the Bastions all heal d3 when a member of their unit dies. Hmmm, that is interesting. Might make Sanguine Bond worth something then. Only real threat then would be aoe's or thresher type attacks. Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought it is an Exemplar CID that was confirmed, but not necessarily an Exemplar Theme CID. Granted, the one can help the other, but still. there is absolutely no chance that PP will examine all the exemplars and NOT the exact way hey want the models actually put into lists.
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