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Post by droopingpuppy on Jun 23, 2017 19:36:45 GMT
Actually, I like to be going second, and I don't want to be goind first because I can hit the enemy on round 1. Also I can see the opponent's deployment first as well. Fair enough. But the +1 is still useful to you, because you get to pick. Of course. If I can't pick, the opponent may go second instead. -_-;;
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Post by Aegis on Jun 23, 2017 19:43:30 GMT
On the Trencher theme:
It's clearly a theme not pointed toward BG, and most casters that want to play it aren't actually that much focus hungry. Sure, it will be missed, but I think we are fine without it.
SoT is different. It limits the list to underpowered/overcosted units, has big problems against ARM or cloudwalls/forests (the current meta) and has weak bonuses. That on the top of cutting off the support on a list that wants to be played by casters that needs it. That is why it is so bad. Trencher has good models included and is in general better coverage of different options, so the two are miles apart.
On the casters without Squire or units without junior:
They are for sure extremely good support models, but Cygnar models are indeed balanced taking them in consideration, so it's true that most time they are needed (Trenchers luckily don't need AS and don't want big BGs).
Things aren't as simple as "other factions live fine with FOC 6 casters, why cygnar doesn't?". The interactions into the various factions are a lot more complex than that, and a lot of those FOC 6 casters have either other efficiency methods included in their package or they start with models that need less support to begin with. That is exactly why a Juggernaught is ok in Khador but would be OP in Cygnar, as an example.
Also, most cygnar casters have lists of very focus hungry spells, and often to play well need to cast most of them every turn. That is also why, despite some foc 7-8 casters, squire, arlan, jr, etc... You are a lot more likely to see a Khador caster camping a lot of focus than a Cygnar one. Because the cygnar caster needs to cast a lot of things, while the Khador caster is builded to function with just 1-2 spells, often upkeepable, until the all-in turn.
On the Stormlances:
Praise Morrow that non-sense OP unit was delt with. I wouldn't mind if they also got DEF 12, but I'll take what they did meanwhile.
P.S: I already said it, but coming into a discussion beginning with "Players of faction X are all spoiled and just whine for nothing" isn't the best way to start a constructive discussion and will just put people on the defensive. While it's true that every player has his bias and sometimes people pretend too much, also consider that it also work on the other way, and people tend to always see the "grass of my neighbour is greener than mine". Often things are balanced taking into account the whole faction and some subtle interactions that aren't easily noticed if you don't know the faction well. Choir is an insanely OP and underpriced unit if you look at it alone, or comparing it to other support, but it is perfectly fine into Menoth because a lot of other little "weaknesses" of the faction make it balanced into it. The same applies for most of the pieces whined for years in every faction. Sometimes things really get messed up (see Stormlances), but I suggest to always think "If that model is really insanely OP as I'm about to write, why doesn't faction X get overwhelmingly more wins than other factions on tournaments?" Often that question alone should suggest to not extremize opinions in general.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 23, 2017 20:21:15 GMT
Things aren't as simple as "other factions live fine with FOC 6 casters, why cygnar doesn't?". The interactions into the various factions are a lot more complex than that, and a lot of those FOC 6 casters have either other efficiency methods included in their package or they start with models that need less support to begin with. That is exactly why a Juggernaught is ok in Khador but would be OP in Cygnar, as an example. Also, most cygnar casters have lists of very focus hungry spells, and often to play well need to cast most of them every turn. That is also why, despite some foc 7-8 casters, squire, arlan, jr, etc... You are a lot more likely to see a Khador caster camping a lot of focus than a Cygnar one. Because the cygnar caster needs to cast a lot of things, while the Khador caster is builded to function with just 1-2 spells, often upkeepable, until the all-in turn. That's kinda wrong from a Khadoran Perspective at the very least in many, many, many ways. I can't look at a single Khadoran Caster and say "I don't need the Squire because its good enough". The Juggernaught is a great model that needs support because its super slow. So thats kinda way off already in my book.
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Post by Aegis on Jun 23, 2017 20:27:47 GMT
Things aren't as simple as "other factions live fine with FOC 6 casters, why cygnar doesn't?". The interactions into the various factions are a lot more complex than that, and a lot of those FOC 6 casters have either other efficiency methods included in their package or they start with models that need less support to begin with. That is exactly why a Juggernaught is ok in Khador but would be OP in Cygnar, as an example. Also, most cygnar casters have lists of very focus hungry spells, and often to play well need to cast most of them every turn. That is also why, despite some foc 7-8 casters, squire, arlan, jr, etc... You are a lot more likely to see a Khador caster camping a lot of focus than a Cygnar one. Because the cygnar caster needs to cast a lot of things, while the Khador caster is builded to function with just 1-2 spells, often upkeepable, until the all-in turn. That's kinda wrong from a Khadoran Perspective at the very least in many, many, many ways. I can't look at a single Khadoran Caster and say "I don't need the Squire because its good enough". The Juggernaught is a great model that needs support because its super slow. So thats kinda way off already in my book. Exactly how I can't look at a single Cygnar jack and say "if I could I wouldn't take the Choir because the jack is good enough". It's obvious that every caster in every faction would take the squire if it could, but that doesn't mean that every caster needs it. The simple fact that Khador is able to win his own fair share of matches without Squire implies that Khador is fine without it, and clearly the faction has something else to make up for the absence of a caster attachment of that level, isn't it? Find me some proof that Cygnar can compete on tournaments with Sons of Tempest and I would reconsider my opinion on the theme, meanwhile, pardon me if I keep my idea that that theme is just as bad as a theme could be.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 23, 2017 20:39:59 GMT
Exactly how I can't look at a single Cygnar jack and say "if I could I wouldn't take the Choir because the jack is good enough". Its just I don't think PP ever intended the Squire to be as ubiquitous as it is. The Choir Came out in Prime, so it was built for the very factions core. So where stuff like Paingivers. And the Corollary. Of course, people are gonna struggle with any option that denies them the option to make their caster flat out better for a very small points investment. It's just how that option even exists is why I call Cygnar spoiled for choice. Personally I don't believe that the Stormlances where nerfed enough, and when they were made better at doing what people argue that the Trenchers struggle at doing, all that's gonna happen is more double Stormlances.
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Post by Aegis on Jun 23, 2017 20:52:09 GMT
Exactly how I can't look at a single Cygnar jack and say "if I could I wouldn't take the Choir because the jack is good enough". Its just I don't think PP ever intended the Squire to be as ubiquitous as it is. The Choir Came out in Prime, so it was built for the very factions core. So where stuff like Paingivers. And the Corollary. Of course, people are gonna struggle with any option that denies them the option to make their caster flat out better for a very small points investment. It's just how that option even exists is why I call Cygnar spoiled for choice. Personally I don't believe that the Stormlances where nerfed enough, and when they were made better at doing what people argue that the Trenchers struggle at doing, all that's gonna happen is more double Stormlances. Consider that in MK1 Cygnar casters were TONS and TONS better than they are now. When MK2 came out, Squire was already there, and for sure it was taken in consideration when they totally rebuilded the casters from scratch. If you read my first post in this topic, I agree that the squire isn't necessary 100% of the times. As an example, into the Trencher theme isn't at all as needed as into Heavy Metal. That said, it is clear that Cygnar casters are balanced considering Squire (expecially in MK3 after PP has seen that for the whole MK2 Squire was a staple), so it goes without doubts that most casters need it to function at 100% of how they were designed to work. Again, you fix your attenction on Cygnar staples, but every faction has his staples (Actually, Khador is one of the factions that is more free and has less must-takes, but even it has some), and every faction would suffer from being denied his main support staples. I don't understand why you continue to say that Cygnar is spoiled just because it has his staples models as everyone else does. On Stormlances, as said I tend to agree that the nerf could even be worse, but for sure it was a substantial nerf that hitted exactly where it hurted most (their ranged capability, that was what actually made them over the top), so I'm willing to test and see how it goes before saying that they need more nerfs. The meta was already a bit shifting from them before the nerf, so maybe it will be enough.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 23, 2017 21:11:55 GMT
If you read my first post in this topic, I agree that the squire isn't necessary 100% of the times. As an example, into the Trencher theme isn't at all as needed as into Heavy Metal. That said, it is clear that Cygnar casters are balanced considering Squire (expecially in MK3 after PP has seen that for the whole MK2 Squire was a staple), so it goes without doubts that most casters need it to function at 100% of how they were designed to work. So you're saying that Cygnarian Casters are weaker than comparable casters in other factions? I would instantly disagree with you there, unless you are saying "Everybody wants just a straight buff to their caster which the Squire Provides". Because plenty of Khadoran Casters were ridiculous in MKI as well and THEY got nerfed too (Def 20 Sorcha, no LOS required Anyone?). Again It's not bothering me that you have such a great option as koy as you are about accepting how it's pretty much a straight buff. Not a "Designed around it". And the Stormlances main advantage was doing everything better (Or at least good enough) then all the other options at the same time. It was that it was harder to kill, killed infantry and warjacks. Now it kills infantry slightly worse and kills warjacks slightly better. I don't see much of a change in the long run. Anyway I'm beginning to feel antagonistic so Il stop now.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Jun 23, 2017 21:14:21 GMT
Why don't most Khador casters take Sylys when it provides a similar level of magical support in a faction where their models need less support?
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Post by Swampmist on Jun 23, 2017 21:15:38 GMT
...what?
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Jun 23, 2017 21:16:15 GMT
If you read my first post in this topic, I agree that the squire isn't necessary 100% of the times. As an example, into the Trencher theme isn't at all as needed as into Heavy Metal. That said, it is clear that Cygnar casters are balanced considering Squire (expecially in MK3 after PP has seen that for the whole MK2 Squire was a staple), so it goes without doubts that most casters need it to function at 100% of how they were designed to work. So you're saying that Cygnarian Casters are weaker than comparable casters in other factions? I would instantly disagree with you there, unless you are saying "Everybody wants just a straight buff to their caster which the Squire Provides". Because plenty of Khadoran Casters were ridiculous in MKI as well and THEY got nerfed too (Def 20 Sorcha, no LOS required Anyone?). Again It's not bothering me that you have such a great option as koy as you are about accepting how it's pretty much a straight buff. Not a "Designed around it". And the Stormlances main advantage was doing everything better (Or at least good enough) then all the other options at the same time. It was that it was harder to kill, killed infantry and warjacks. Now it kills infantry slightly worse and kills warjacks slightly better. I don't see much of a change in the long run. Anyway I'm beginning to feel antagonistic so Il stop now. Putting Uhlans on the table feels very similar to putting storm lances on thr table. Storm lances are better (because Uhlans are trash), but its really hard to pull that trigger on a charge when you are generally more expensive than what you charge.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Jun 23, 2017 21:17:05 GMT
Sylys and squire both start with s and coffee isn't in my system yet
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Post by Swampmist on Jun 23, 2017 21:24:54 GMT
Sylys and squire both start with s and coffee isn't in my system yet Fair enough . On the topic though, to my knowledge most not-vlad1 casters playing out of theme will take sylys in many cases. I know the Battle Box caster loves him, for instance.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Jun 23, 2017 21:33:32 GMT
Sylys and squire both start with s and coffee isn't in my system yet Fair enough . On the topic though, to my knowledge most not-vlad1 casters playing out of theme will take sylys in many cases. I know the Battle Box caster loves him, for instance. What I'm saying is that it seem disengenuous to say that cygnar players will *always* take the squire while Khador players won't *always* take Sylys. The only caster off the top of my head that gets very little from Sylys is Vlad 1.
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Post by Swampmist on Jun 23, 2017 21:51:10 GMT
Was anyone not taking sylys before themes dropped?
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Post by Aegis on Jun 23, 2017 21:52:42 GMT
If you read my first post in this topic, I agree that the squire isn't necessary 100% of the times. As an example, into the Trencher theme isn't at all as needed as into Heavy Metal. That said, it is clear that Cygnar casters are balanced considering Squire (expecially in MK3 after PP has seen that for the whole MK2 Squire was a staple), so it goes without doubts that most casters need it to function at 100% of how they were designed to work. So you're saying that Cygnarian Casters are weaker than comparable casters in other factions? I would instantly disagree with you there, unless you are saying "Everybody wants just a straight buff to their caster which the Squire Provides". Because plenty of Khadoran Casters were ridiculous in MKI as well and THEY got nerfed too (Def 20 Sorcha, no LOS required Anyone?). Again It's not bothering me that you have such a great option as koy as you are about accepting how it's pretty much a straight buff. Not a "Designed around it". And the Stormlances main advantage was doing everything better (Or at least good enough) then all the other options at the same time. It was that it was harder to kill, killed infantry and warjacks. Now it kills infantry slightly worse and kills warjacks slightly better. I don't see much of a change in the long run. Anyway I'm beginning to feel antagonistic so Il stop now. Cygnar casters aren't weaker than Khador ones, actually probably the total output of most of them is bigger than khador ones. What Cygnar casters are is usually being more focus hungry (despite beginning with more focus than Khador ones). That said, again, trying to focus on a single part of a faction isn't accurate. Cygnar casters usually do more work than Khador casters (so, in a certain sense, are stronger) because the faction is balanced around it. Khador main advantage is to have a lot of self sufficient and effective models, usually also quite cheap. That is why the faction can leave with less over the top casters. Cygnar models, on the other side, are generically overpriced and not very effective if left unsupported, but are balanced around the fact that Cygnar casters and support models are supposed to be there to bring them on par. Stormlances were OP exactly because they were too generically good and all-rounded in a faction that could push them to over the top. Again, instead of always looking at the neighbour models and complain because they get too great tools, just look at tournament placements. That is the best indicator of how strong a faction is. Cygnar was pretty bad at the beginning of MK2. Then, after Stormwall, it got to a good place, but his win ratio were always close to 50%. When was the only time when Cygnar REALLY was winning an alarming quantity of game? Just after the release of Storm Division. when the already over the curve Stormlances got a big discount on the top of it, pushing them to the far OP realm. If a faction stays around 50% of win ratio, you can complain how you want on how it is full of OP pieces, but the numbers will always tell that you are not considering something, because if a faction really gets it better than others, that can be seen on tournaments results.
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