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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Jun 23, 2017 11:58:56 GMT
So with the Trencher CID having been wrapped up and us all eagerly anticipating the final versions, I have been thinking a bit more about Gravediggers and the Squire (or lack thereof).
The Squire is arguably the most prolific model in Cygnar (apart from maybe the Junior), mainly because he can benefit every caster in one if not all of the following ways
1) extra CTRL for feats, CTRL spells, spreading warjacks out 2) accuracy for spells 3) focus efficiency
Now most casters want at least one, if not all of the list above. There are a large number of casters who if you were building a vanilla list for, would without question include the Squire. So does the exclusion of the Squire from Gravediggers exclude these casters from ever wanting to run the theme and still be competitive.
Casters that would rather take Heavy Metal or Storm Division due to general lack of synergy with Gravediggers:
Captain E. Dominic Darius & Halfjacks Captain Kara Sloan Commander Adept Nemo (1) General Adept Nemo (2) Artificer General Nemo & Storm Chaser Adept Caitlin Finch (3) Captain Jeremiah Kraye Caine's Hellslingers (3)
Casters that rely on the Squire too much to take Gravediggers:
Major Victoria Haley (2) - I feel like this one is self explanatory Casters that could probably play Gravediggers, and could maybe manage without a Squire, but could play just as well or better in another theme:
Captain Allison Jakes Captain Victoria Haley (1) Commander Coleman Stryker (1) Lord Commander Stryker (2) Lord General Coleman Stryker (3) Constance Blaize, Knight of the Prophet Lieutenant Allister Caine (1) Captain Allister Caine (2) Commander Dalin Sturgis Major Beth Maddox Major Markus ‘Siege’ Brisbane (1)
Casters that arguably don't need a Squire and would want Gravediggers:
Major Prime Victoria Haley (3) Colonel Markus ‘Siege’ Brisbane (2)
So out of the entire catalogue of casters there are only 2 in my opinion that:
a) don't rely on the Squire too much b) would want Gravediggers c) are not arguably better in a different theme
what do you guys think? am I on point? or just a salty scrub who crutches on Squire and Heavy Metal?
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 23, 2017 12:03:05 GMT
Man Does Cygnar want all the Toys. Easily the most spoiled faction.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Jun 23, 2017 12:11:14 GMT
Man Does Cygnar want all the Toys. Easily the most spoiled faction. Thank you for your well thought and reasoned insight, much appreciated
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 23, 2017 12:17:07 GMT
Thank you for your well thought and reasoned insight, much appreciated In more seriousness, the Squire is just such a powerful option, really changes how your entire caster plays, and is applicable to just about everything. Other caster based attachments don't even come close except niche cases and maybe the corollary. It just speaks allot of how Cygnar is spoiled for choice when your faction received so many choices and so many options, but your previous massive bonuses make them a near non-choice.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Jun 23, 2017 12:26:53 GMT
Thank you for your well thought and reasoned insight, much appreciated In more seriousness, the Squire is just such a powerful option, really changes how your entire caster plays, and is applicable to just about everything. Other caster based attachments don't even come close except niche cases and maybe the corollary. It just speaks allot of how Cygnar is spoiled for choice when your faction received so many choices and so many options, but your previous massive bonuses make them a near non-choice. I agree that the Squire is such a great piece, and pretty much every caster would want one. maybe a theme without it will be second class simply because of its exclusion? it is hard to imagine a hypothetical Convergence theme with the Corollary ever seeing play, maybe it is the same sort of problem with the Squire
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Post by bluebarren on Jun 23, 2017 12:33:14 GMT
Well to be fair, everyone has their own support system thats strong; choir, soul collection, arcanists, etc. And the squire is built into our faction and limits our access to casters with more than 6 focus (we've got nemos and haleys).
That being said i think thematically it makes sense to not have a squire in gravediggers. Casters generally don't NEED it, its just nice to have. I played cid kraye in gravediggers a few times, taking a unit (maybe 2), as well as the trencher jr really takes a big load off of Kraye. The biggest thing I missed was the bigger control area.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Jun 23, 2017 12:36:02 GMT
Well to be fair, everyone has their own support system thats strong; choir, soul collection, arcanists, etc. And the squire is built into our faction and limits our access to casters with more than 6 focus (we've got nemos and haleys). That being said i think thematically it makes sense to not have a squire in gravediggers. Casters generally don't NEED it, its just nice to have. I played cid kraye in gravediggers a few times, taking a unit (maybe 2), as well as the trencher jr really takes a big load off of Kraye. The biggest thing I missed was the bigger control area. Having played a fair bit of Kraye, he needs the Squire for the CTRL area alone, as much as I would like Countermeasure Commandoes, I would not really consider taking him without one
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 23, 2017 12:39:34 GMT
Well to be fair, everyone has their own support system thats strong; choir, soul collection, arcanists, etc. And the squire is built into our faction and limits our access to casters with more than 6 focus (we've got nemos and haleys). Thats pretty much massive bull. You have 3 Journeymans, providing some of the most focus support in the entire game, and you have 2 Focus 8 Casters. It's rubbish to say that your faction is "Balanced" by the Squire. It's not like your casters are that Weak or "Bad". You have a solid amount of focus 7 casters already.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Jun 23, 2017 12:42:54 GMT
Well to be fair, everyone has their own support system thats strong; choir, soul collection, arcanists, etc. And the squire is built into our faction and limits our access to casters with more than 6 focus (we've got nemos and haleys). Thats pretty much massive bull. You have 3 Journeymans, providing some of the most focus support in the entire game, and you have 2 Focus 8 Casters. It's rubbish to say that your faction is "Balanced" by the Squire. It's not like your casters are that Weak or "Bad". You have a solid amount of focus 7 casters already. Salt alert.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Jun 23, 2017 12:44:58 GMT
There are plenty of casters who can function without a Squire and would be able to play an entirely different game under Gravediggers. Replacing access to focus support with access to cover. Kraye might be able to play a game where he sticks a bunch of jacks into Blockhouse Trenches and shoots while repositioning them back into the trenches until he needs to go on the offensive.
Stryker 2 can play in Gravediggers as can Stryker 1.
I feel a lot of people are underestimating Trenchers and their capacity to be huge Jerks to people.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Jun 23, 2017 13:00:16 GMT
There are plenty of casters who can function without a Squire and would be able to play an entirely different game under Gravediggers. Replacing access to focus support with access to cover. Kraye might be able to play a game where he sticks a bunch of jacks into Blockhouse Trenches and shoots while repositioning them back into the trenches until he needs to go on the offensive. Stryker 2 can play in Gravediggers as can Stryker 1. I feel a lot of people are underestimating Trenchers and their capacity to be huge Jerks to people. I agree Stryker 2 might like Gravediggers as he gets access to Gibbs, and Positive Charge can help the Trenchers out as well as his jacks.
Does Stryker 1 though not just want Heavy Metal or Storm Division? so he can stack armour to crazy high levels and effectively use his feat as a timewalk?
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Post by bluebarren on Jun 23, 2017 13:32:20 GMT
Well to be fair, everyone has their own support system thats strong; choir, soul collection, arcanists, etc. And the squire is built into our faction and limits our access to casters with more than 6 focus (we've got nemos and haleys). Thats pretty much massive bull. You have 3 Journeymans, providing some of the most focus support in the entire game, and you have 2 Focus 8 Casters. It's rubbish to say that your faction is "Balanced" by the Squire. It's not like your casters are that Weak or "Bad". You have a solid amount of focus 7 casters already. I mean if you want to get technical about it, haley3 generally has 12 focus per turn. Jrs are great, but it's a squishy model with a target on its head that doesn't help with casters that need/want jacks in their BG. (Not much of a complaint, just tossing it out there) Also to bring things back on topic, yes cygnar has lots of access to non-warcaster focus (3jrs, arlan, squire), but gravediggers gives us none outside of the trencher jr. So it makes it hard to use some bg focused casters that generally rely on at least the squire and arlan to keep things moving relatively smoothly.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 23, 2017 13:41:12 GMT
So it makes it hard to use some bg focused casters that generally rely on at least the squire and arlan to keep things moving relatively smoothly. But isn't this a non-BG themed list? Don't tell me its impossible to run Jacks unless you have at least +5 Focus a turn. You listed legitimate problems, but It feels like its complaints that you can't have it all.
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Post by jisidro on Jun 23, 2017 14:05:00 GMT
Cygnar has had the dubious advantage of getting 2 great themes early that now warp every other theme that comes along. SoT is a normal theme that would get by with no squire and a BG restriction but for the fact that it sits alongside Storm Division and Heavy Metal who have Squire, Journeyman(s), Arlan along with the thematic stuff.
It's really hard to now justify Gravediggers lack of Squire/Journeyman unless you look at the other factions and their themes.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Jun 23, 2017 14:12:23 GMT
Cygnar has had the dubious advantage of getting 2 great themes early that now warp every other theme that comes along. SoT is a normal theme that would get by with no squire and a BG restriction but for the fact that it sits alongside Storm Division and Heavy Metal who have Squire, Journeyman(s), Arlan along with the thematic stuff. It's really hard to now justify Gravediggers lack of Squire/Journeyman unless you look at the other factions and their themes. I don't often agree with what you write, but I think you correct with this assessment
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