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Post by W0lfBane on Jun 15, 2017 22:06:23 GMT
A+ you explained everything i was trying to explain in one well written post. May the creator smile upon you.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 16, 2017 4:54:16 GMT
My point is imagine the following:
A man is stuck in the desert with his children as says the following: "Boy I hope we find some water boys, otherwise Il be forced to crack your heads open and drink the sweet blood nectar inside! Lets hope It doesn't have to come to that!"
You wouldn't call him "Good" or "OK". You would call him a sociopath. Thats my point with menoth. You can't play it both ways. At best he is an abusive and completely amoral (I get that hes a god but the gods in the setting have been pretty humanized). At worst he's downright evil.
Just because he doesn't care how his souls reach his gaping maw doesn't make him a "OK" character. Like if a businessman just doesn't care how he makes money, either by corporate sabotage and theft or by legitimate business.
That doesn't make the Businessman OK. That makes then CORRUPT. You don't have to be kicking puppies 24/7 to be a vile individual. Just 12/2 is good enough.
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princeraven
Junior Strategist
Shredder spam is best spam
Posts: 256
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Post by princeraven on Jun 16, 2017 6:14:09 GMT
The thing is which definition of Mary Sue are we using? Obviously some sort of canon sue since we aren't talking about fanfiction.
One definition of a Mary Sue is being an unrealistic paragon of virtue and skill. I don't believe Cygnar fits this definition. For starters they have been ruled by a paranoid tyrant, a naive and overly trusting fool, and a puppet child. They've also made plenty of terrible decisions which have turned potential allies like the Trollkin into enemies.
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Post by Aegis on Jun 16, 2017 6:14:23 GMT
Since it seems that we aren't able to keep a fluff discussion on topic, and opening 1000 topics at every twist of the discussion would flood the forum in few days at this rate, I'm just going to change this topic title into something more generic.
Please, continue to discuss IK fluff in general here.
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Post by Aegis on Jun 16, 2017 6:24:54 GMT
My point is imagine the following: A man is stuck in the desert with his children as says the following: "Boy I hope we find some water boys, otherwise Il be forced to crack your heads open and drink the sweet blood nectar inside! Lets hope It doesn't have to come to that!" You wouldn't call him "Good" or "OK". You would call him a sociopath. Thats my point with menoth. You can't play it both ways. At best he is an abusive and completely amoral (I get that hes a god but the gods in the setting have been pretty humanized). At worst he's downright evil. Just because he doesn't care how his souls reach his gaping maw doesn't make him a "OK" character. Like if a businessman just doesn't care how he makes money, either by corporate sabotage and theft or by legitimate business. That doesn't make the Businessman OK. That makes then CORRUPT. You don't have to be kicking puppies 24/7 to be a vile individual. Just 12/2 is good enough. By the standard alignment system of D&D, Menoth would be Lawful Neutral, with a church mostly Lawful Evil (at least into PoM). Yes, he is close to amoral, I say close because he is actually committed into supporting "Order" and fighting "Chaos", but he is amoral on the "Good/Evil" sense. His relationship with humans is close to the one of a shepherd to his sheeps. He works to give them reasonable safety and cures (the gift of building, fire, laws, etc...) but does so just as a means to gain souls for his war. As much as a shepherd isn't "Good" when he feeds a sheep or gives her shelter (since he does so for his own gain later) nor he is evil when he kills her to eat her (since to his point of view, the sheep is inferior to him and her whole existence was meant to be a resource for him to exploit), Menoth is not Good or Evil, he is just focussed on another goal (fighting the Wurm) and Humanity is just a "precious tool/livestock" for his purpose. The basis of the Menite faith isn't "Let's worship Menoth since he is Good" (That would be Morrow), but "Menoth created us and gave us civilty, we owe him respect and gratitude for our very existance, and he is actually our only chance to not be devoured by the Wurm, so we must worship him or we risk eventually to be destroyed".
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Post by borderprince on Jun 16, 2017 7:11:50 GMT
You wouldn't call him "Good" or "OK". You would call him a sociopath. Thats my point with menoth. You can't play it both ways. At best he is an abusive and completely amoral (I get that hes a god but the gods in the setting have been pretty humanized). I would disagree with that quite strongly. Morrow and Thamar have been humanized, probably because they were once human. But even they act in rather mysterious ways. There is nothing recognisably human in how Menoth and the Wurm act. Their human worshippers might try to give them human characteristics, but that's arguably part of human psychology, rather than an accurate characterization of the god itself. Morally, Menoth could be seen as a consequentialist - everything he does is about opposing the Wurm, because otherwise the Wurm manifests on Caen and then it's game over. From that perspective, everything he does is better than the alternative, including simple inaction. If you're happy with consequentialist ethics, this is perfectly acceptable. It not, that's fine, but means you're working in a different ethical framework and unlikely to agree on many issues. Not just risk being destroyed, but almost certainly will be destroyed - at least in Urcaen. The City of Man offers the strongest protection from the Wurm in Urcaen, and that's a nice option. Your earthly life might not be that exciting/enjoyable, but at least your soul doesn't spend eternity being hunted and eaten by the apex predator of the spiritual world. As for this: To be a Menite one has to follow the Canon of the True Law. But that law has to be interpreted and there clearly are differences of opinion about that, including about the role of priests as rulers (not helped by a history of Menite priest-kings - which were they first?). Some Menites believe that the Sul-Menites have the correct interpretation, others disagree. There are even differences within the Protectorate on important points - there's an old fluff piece where Vindictus captures Vlad and Sevy is not happy about this, as Vlad should have been protected under the law as a ruler. Vindictus does not seem to accept that interpretation. It may be that Menoth is less bothered about the correct interpretation of the Canon than his followers, hence his willingness to tolerate diverse Menite traditions.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 16, 2017 7:53:51 GMT
Alright I agree as a force of nature, menoth isnt evil merely amoral. As moral as a rock or a wall.
But my question remains: if menoth favors one interpretation of the law (the kill the heretics kind) then how would a cygnarian menite justify not living under their rule?
Its not a case of differing interpretation if god gives gifts to the sycophantic murderers and nothing sans the basics to the kind ones.
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Post by welshhoppo on Jun 16, 2017 8:39:20 GMT
Well how many variants do we have in our religions? People have gone to war over being a Catholic and a protestant.
Besides, PoM is more or less based off ISIS. Or maybe ISIS is based off the PoM.
Secular government, guarantee of heaven. Everyone who doesn't agree with you gets wracked. Jihads are just Crusades with an Islamic name.
And the country is full of Oil.
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Post by borderprince on Jun 16, 2017 8:44:46 GMT
But my question remains: if menoth favors one interpretation of the law (the kill the heretics kind) then how would a cygnarian menite justify not living under their rule? There's no direct evidence that he does favour one interpretation of the law. Such a view could be inferred: (1) The Protectorate has clearly been militarily successful, which could be interpreted as divine favor; (2) The sul-menites have also received Menoth's two direct agents on Caen, the Avatar and Harbinger, suggesting some favor to that branch of the faith. But: ( 1) Neither of those agents has made any statement that only the sul-menites are correct in their view of the menite faith; (2) In the course of military success, Voyle tried a kill all the heretics approach and was struck down (having previously enjoyed Menoth's favor), by the Harbinger's own blessed weapon. That suggests military aggression, even against Morrowans, is not wholly supported by Menoth; (3) Earlier menite clergy recognised the divinity of Morrow and permitted his worship, provided due respect was given to Menoth as the creator of man; More generally, we don't know how much the average person actually knows about the events we see in the storyline, or the interpretations they are given (or form independently). We can presume Cygnarans know Voyle invaded Caspia, was defeated and died, but what else? They might know of the Harbinger, but how do they know she has done everything that is claimed for her? Even if they do know that, can people be sure it is from divine power? Magic can accomplish much in the setting. I'm sure the sul-menites try to spread their version of the faith to other menite communities, but the priests in those communities probably aren't going to just lie down and accept the sul-menite version, or even the sul-menite statements of 'fact'. That would entail rejecting an understanding of the faith they have followed for decades, even centuries. Barring a direct statement by Menoth himself, to everyone else, there's always going to be disagreement.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 16, 2017 9:07:18 GMT
There's no direct evidence that he does favour one interpretation of the law. Such a view could be inferred: (1) The Protectorate has clearly been militarily successful, which could be interpreted as divine favor; (2) The sul-menites have also received Menoth's two direct agents on Caen, the Avatar and Harbinger, suggesting some favor to that branch of the faith. Im not talking about the Sul Menites. Im talking about the protectorate. Again Voyle didn't die because aggression sucks. He died because he attacked too soon. My point is that Menites that have not dropped their faith are a massive weak spot in any country that has them (As already demonstrated in Khador). When a Protectorite comes up and dazzles a Menite with the powers that god has favored them for burning the heretic, what does the Cygnarian say in responce? "I don't believe your magic comes from menoth?"
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Post by Aegis on Jun 16, 2017 9:14:15 GMT
Alright I agree as a force of nature, menoth isnt evil merely amoral. As moral as a rock or a wall. But my question remains: if menoth favors one interpretation of the law (the kill the heretics kind) then how would a cygnarian menite justify not living under their rule? Its not a case of differing interpretation if god gives gifts to the sycophantic murderers and nothing sans the basics to the kind ones. Actually, Menoth gave supernatural support to both sides. True, the Avatar fights for the Protectorate, but Harby remains a bit a wildcard inside it. She has many detractors inside it (even if they are not openly so... yet...), and has worked "against" the Protectorate in few occasions (like with Voyle). That suggests that Menoth mostly support the Protectorate, but not always and not in all the clergy decisions. He is now giving visions to Tristan that has a radically different behaviour than scrutators, and that could also be seen as a support of Menoth for behaviours diffent from the Protectorate standard. Finally, we don't actually know how much miracles Menoth has conceded to priests outside PoM. Maybe he indeed given quite important ones that just weren't described as they didn't influenced politic (Think at all the Iron Kingdoms RPG potential stories). All those things can be used as reasons, for a not Sul-Menite priest, to think that Protectorate's interpretation of the True Law isn't 100% right, and that maybe they are wrong in some approaches and he is right into sticking to his culture own approach to Menoth's worship. Or, even more simply, a Menite could think that joining the protectorate is beyond his capabilities or possibility (leaving a country for another, that maybe doesn't even speaks your language for Khador priests, isn't something that can be done easily for most people), so one menite could just think that the best thing he can do is just being faithful where he lives and potentially talk other people into joining his faith. Not every citizen is equally religious. For sure, most menites are just committed into resolving the daily hardships of life and support their families and friends, and view Menoth just as a thing they have to venerate to be assured of a safe afterlife in Urcaen (and probably Menoth is fine with it. As long as they join him in the war after they die and don't go directly against the True Law, probably he doesn't particulary care if someone is not very zelant during life).
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 16, 2017 9:30:44 GMT
Actually, Menoth gave supernatural support to both sides. So had a menite priest ever brandished power against an approaching horde of zealots in defense of "Nonbelievers"? It's important stuff. Like I say, if all it takes is a Menite Priest God at the door to show off his powers before they flock to receive their bombs and swords, then Menites are a danger to the country. The IK fluff constantly describes how the Protectorate converts or pulls back menits by showing off their Powers. Maybe my point about how Menoth is a bastard for kicking puppies on a sunday is incorrect but it still stands true for the Harbringer. She doesn't get to play ms nice nice because she saves one village (I believe converting it anyway) but then lets 25 others burn because its convenient.
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Post by Aegis on Jun 16, 2017 9:33:30 GMT
My point is that Menites that have not dropped their faith are a massive weak spot in any country that has them (As already demonstrated in Khador). When a Protectorite comes up and dazzles a Menite with the powers that god has favored them for burning the heretic, what does the Cygnarian say in responce? "I don't believe your magic comes from menoth?" Probably the same answer that a Protectorate priest would give to a Cygnar priest when he says "Menoth favors me and gives me miracles, so he must be ok with what I'm doing here without joining you". In practice, Menoth seem to just favor everyone worships him and everyone spreads his faith, whatever the means. What is the best way of doing so isn't something that Menoth has clearly supported, so every Menite (at least the ones that don't go so outside the canon that become heretic and are stripped of holy powers by Menoth himself) has ground to say that his way is the best way to be a good Menite (exactly as Catholics and Protestants argue about what is the best way to be Christians and what is the best interpretation of Christ message).
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Cyel
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Cyel on Jun 16, 2017 10:21:49 GMT
Alright...But that feels a bit like its stretching it. I guess then Menothians must be insulated from information lest they learn the truth. The more miracles they would see, the more they would give up and join the murderous Protectorate. I think you're mistaking medieval-like Iron Kingdoms with the modern world where people choose religion that appeals to them best, like they choose cereals in a supermarket. In a setting based on middle ages people worship a god because it is obvious to them, there's no questioning it or looking for a proof or philosophy behind it. You just do it or you are a filthy infidel (or , even worse, a protestant-type apostate )
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Post by W0lfBane on Jun 16, 2017 11:56:03 GMT
When the protectorate collapses into civil war i feel all your "obviously menoth supports the sociopaths" theory is gonna fall apart a little bit. And to answer the harbinger question. I think her story arc is leading into a apocalypse scenario where she keeps the faith going. Like she's guided by vision to save specific people and villages. I think its her building a coalition of faithful that believe in her that she can continue the menoth faith once the apocalypse scenario in ik happens. Like menoth wants his faith to still exist after the ik apocalypse. But that's just a guess.
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