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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 15, 2017 18:19:07 GMT
Also, the Menites don't know that their god only wants their souls. They know that he's the creator of Mankind, and he gave them civilization (fire, wall, law). So, they have fair reason to worship him. So thats my question to them: If you worship him, why aren't;t you strapping down your neighbor and torturing them until they convert? Why aren't you with the protectorate burning nonbelievers to death? Thats what menoth wants. His avatar and ALL his greatest gifts are centered on the protectorate. His gifts are no longer walls or fires. Its Titanic deathmachines that burn you alive.
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Post by Korianneder on Jun 15, 2017 18:50:29 GMT
Also, the Menites don't know that their god only wants their souls. They know that he's the creator of Mankind, and he gave them civilization (fire, wall, law). So, they have fair reason to worship him. So thats my question to them: If you worship him, why aren't;t you strapping down your neighbor and torturing them until they convert? Why aren't you with the protectorate burning nonbelievers to death? Thats what menoth wants. His avatar and ALL his greatest gifts are centered on the protectorate. His gifts are no longer walls or fires. Its Titanic deathmachines that burn you alive. There's no proof to most people about that. Harbinger is a young floating girl who claims to represent Menoth himself. Magic is fairly common so who can say for certain that's what she is? Protectorate claims the avatar was designed by menoth himself, but they don't have proof. Joe in Caspia can't say for certain that these people represent the true version of menoth. He's more concerned about him and his own family. It's not like menoth talks to Joe. There's no tv or internet where he can get communications from the protectorate. To him that stuff is mostly rumors and stories. It's the same with Convergence. They're only a portion of the worshippers of Cyris but they have a machine that claims to let them talk to her. Their machine is basically a computer and any error message they get is a sign from their god. It may or may not actually be form Cyris. There's very few people who have actually met their gods. High reclaimer went to urcaen, but I'm not sure if he met menoth or not. The elves brought their gods down to caen. The majority of people know gods are real, but they don't interact with them at all.
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Post by chillychinaman on Jun 15, 2017 18:53:24 GMT
Simple, if all the true believers killed themselves, there would be no one to recruit new believers. I mean that explains the not offing themselves, but why bother with all the clergy and jazz then? A lot of Khadorans are Menites whose soul I assume their souls are going to the City of Man, then what's the point of the Sul theocracy?
Also, as an aside, how do the Twins fit into the IKRPGs pantheon? I know Thamarites in general are evil/self-centered, but Menite societies used to accept Morrowans in the setting's past as long as they followed a set of rules. How did the clergy reconcile that? I vaguely remember reading somewhere that Morrow(and Thamar?) basically setup the spiritual equivalent of neighborhoods within the City of Man. Is/Was this canon?
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 15, 2017 18:56:17 GMT
There's no proof to most people about that. Harbinger is a young floating girl who claims to represent Menoth himself. Magic is fairly common so who can say for certain that's what she is? Protectorate claims the avatar was designed by menoth himself, but they don't have proof. Alright...But that feels a bit like its stretching it. I guess then Menothians must be insulated from information lest they learn the truth. The more miracles they would see, the more they would give up and join the murderous Protectorate.
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jun 15, 2017 19:00:47 GMT
Simple, if all the true believers killed themselves, there would be no one to recruit new believers. I mean that explains the not offing themselves, but why bother with all the clergy and jazz then? A lot of Khadorans are Menites whose soul I assume their souls are going to the City of Man, then what's the point of the Sul theocracy?
Also, as an aside, how do the Twins fit into the IKRPGs pantheon? I know Thamarites in general are evil/self-centered, but Menite societies used to accept Morrowans in the setting's past as long as they followed a set of rules. How did the clergy reconcile that? I vaguely remember reading somewhere that Morrow(and Thamar?) basically setup the spiritual equivalent of neighborhoods within the City of Man. Is/Was this canon?
That's roughly the state of things. Morrow and Thamar ascended to godhood. At the time, Menite was the main religion. At first the Menites refuted the new Morrowan faith, but eventually Morrow started performing miracles and stuff. The Menites decided it was OK to acknowlege Morrow, so long as Menoth was held as the one true god. So Morrow was treated more or less like a saint/demigod. However, the Morrowans eventually gained political ground as the Menite priests lost it. In actuality, you could consider Morrow and Thamar to be like lesser gods. They have domains in Urcaen. They perform miracles, and exist, and stuff. They just aren't as powerful as Menoth or the Wurm.
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Post by Korianneder on Jun 15, 2017 19:18:54 GMT
There's no proof to most people about that. Harbinger is a young floating girl who claims to represent Menoth himself. Magic is fairly common so who can say for certain that's what she is? Protectorate claims the avatar was designed by menoth himself, but they don't have proof. Alright...But that feels a bit like its stretching it. I guess then Menothians must be insulated from information lest they learn the truth. The more miracles they would see, the more they would give up and join the murderous Protectorate. I believe there was a story where this happened. There was a town that refused to support protectorate. Fairly certain it was a Khadoran town. Not sure how much of them worshipped Menoth. The protectorate was going to just burn the thing to the ground, but Harby showed up and started doing miracles and intervening on their behalf. She's also gone against the protectorate before. Stryker defeated the previous pope because she gave him her sword. Voyle had already beat the crap out of Stryker. So the protectorate and Menoth aren't always in the same page. This doubt can also be used to keep worshippers of menoth away from the protectorate.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 15, 2017 19:33:08 GMT
She's also gone against the protectorate before. Well she shouldn't or she should fully. Her "High Ground" is made out of cotton and crackers. I'm sorry sister but when an entire martial order is dedicated to the horrific torture of people who just don't happen to PRAY enough (Their OWN people!), saving a single village is pisswhiddle. It's PISSWIDDLE. At at time when great threats are against mankind and a showing of force could get people to accept them as saviours, their busy lining thier uniforms with gold and murdering innocents. And menoth does not give a Firetruck. And SHE does not give a Firetruck. Its not like the Avatar was against the war, or the wanton slaughter of others. No She just wanted to hold off for a bit. Go ahead, murder the heretics, Line the streets with their blood. Strap them onto the racks and made them plead for death. But don't you dare go ahead for now. She has so much clout, but doesn't want or can't use it. So that says everything to me about the corruption of menoth. The protectorate, or more specific MENOTH has no high ground. Im sick of this "OOOOOh mysterious unknown motives" BS. Menoth doesn't care. And he's not a distant god. Hes an abusive one. He wants everything, but will give nothing when the chips are down.
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Post by Korianneder on Jun 15, 2017 19:40:47 GMT
She's also gone against the protectorate before. Well she shouldn't or she should fully. Her "High Ground" is made out of cotton and crackers. I'm sorry sister but when an entire martial order is dedicated to the horrific torture of people who just don't happen to PRAY enough (Their OWN people!), saving a single village is pisswhiddle. It's PISSWIDDLE. At at time when great threats are against mankind and a showing of force could get people to accept them as saviours, their busy lining thier uniforms with gold and murdering innocents. And menoth does not give a Firetruck. And SHE does not give a Firetruck. Its not like the Avatar was against the war, or the wanton slaughter of others. No She just wanted to hold off for a bit. Go ahead, murder the heretics, Line the streets with their blood. Strap them onto the racks and made them plead for death. But don't you dare go ahead for now. She has so much clout, but doesn't want or can't use it. So that says everything to me about the corruption of menoth. The protectorate, or more specific MENOTH has no high ground. Im sick of this "OOOOOh mysterious unknown motives" BS. Menoth doesn't care. And he's not a distant god. Hes an abusive one. He wants everything, but will give nothing when the chips are down. You seem a little bit more personally invested in this conversation then you need to be. I'm just relaying what I can remember of the fluff. The basis of her disagreements is that she behaves on the visions and prophesies of menoth. So menoth warned Voyle, through Harbinger, that if he went into an ununified Caspia it would end poorly for him. He's like "Lol, I got this." And went in anyway. So she gave Cygnar the weapon to stop him. Which brings it back to the topic of the thread. In order to prevent Cygnar to losing to Protectorate the writers decided Menoth was rooting for Cygnar in that fight. I am not a fan of Cygnars fluff.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 15, 2017 19:43:27 GMT
Which brings it back to the topic of the thread. In order to prevent Cygnar to losing to Protectorate the writers decided Menoth was rooting for Cygnar in that fight. I am not a fan of Cygnars fluff. Im mad because If Khador is to be Cygnars Eternal job to make them look better, then let us be absolute monsters. . Cygnar gets to survive because of almost literal Divine Fiat, whilst Khador has to make hard choices or even illogical ones in order to make Cygnar look good.
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Post by Cryptix on Jun 15, 2017 19:52:13 GMT
Calm down a bit Rowdy. It's a fictional world about a game with little resin soldiers.
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Post by W0lfBane on Jun 15, 2017 19:53:28 GMT
Ok rowdy please calm down. You're almost frothing at the mouth. You don't have to agree with the religion or anything but no need to go insane with rage because of it. For your own sake and stress levels take a moment and relax and not think about it.
The protectorate came about from using people's faith in the creator to organize and keep the menoth faith from losing any more power. It has evolved into the corrupt state it currently is. Not every Menite wanted to join at the beginning and not every Menite wants to now. You can be a Menite and disagree with how the protectorate handles the mission of menoth. An example is the order of paladins. They have chapters everywhere and often quarell with protectorate leadership. Like menoth is the ultimate neutral gods. "Follow these rules so the devourer doesn't eat you otherwise do as you wish." Like of the only condition is fulfilled hell give you miracles. Like it's not his fault most of his followers are organized by nutjobs. Like he doesn't care how you're organized in caen or how evil you are. In urcaen you are all equalized under his authority and must do what he says so how you organize yourselves on caen doesn't matter.
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Post by W0lfBane on Jun 15, 2017 19:58:01 GMT
Tldr menoth is the ultimate god of not giving a Firetruck while being extremely picky about chewing with your mouth open
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 15, 2017 20:02:08 GMT
Calm down a bit Rowdy. It's a fictional world about a game with little resin soldiers. THIER REAL TO ME! I LOVE MY PLASTIC AND METAL SOLDIERS RAAAAAAAAGHHAHAH! I just like to argue for fun sometimes. Its all in good fun.
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jun 15, 2017 20:14:31 GMT
I mean, Voyle had literal plot armor. So obvioisly they needed kryptonite. Harby fulfilled Menoth's prophecy.
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Post by Aegis on Jun 15, 2017 21:49:19 GMT
Well, it could be explained like that:
Mentoh is a god with many faces, the builder, the creator of knowledge, law and order, but also the wrath and the purification.
He is many time depicted as a god totally invested into his war with the Wurm, that doesn't give his creatures (humans) much attenction aside from when he needs them in said war.
That means that Menoth mainly cares about being worshipped. Having souls that would join him in Urcaen.
He doesn't care much if those souls come from people that extremize his role as wrathbringer or from paladins that help the people of the villages they live in.
Also, Menite priests are both into the protectorate and outside (expecially in Khador, but also in Cygnar, Llael and Ord), and he gives them miracles (divine spells) anyway.
This doesn't seem to show a definite choice of position of the god himself. Probably he likes that the Protectorate exists, since it actively seeks to convert the world to his faith, and so helps them with things like the Avatar, but he probably realizes that the extremist ways of the Protectorate aren't going to appeal everyone, so he also likes that there are Menites around that apply a more peaceful approach to conversion, that can reach some souls that the zealotry of the PoM would otherwise never reach.
Those differences between different ways of worshipping Menoth are also into the protectorate itself. Paladins (and the Harby) often incarnate the good side of Menoth, Allegiants are ascetics, while Scrutators and Purifiers incarnate his fiery wrath.
Those factions have actually a tense relationship between each other, and the last book released (Godless) seems to point towards an even more direct internal fight coming soon into the Protectorate, expecially after the event that many could guess just looking at the cover of the book.
All that to say that to be a good Menite you don't necessarily have to wrack everyone doesn't worship Menoth.
Actually Tristan Durant incarnates a lot the idea of wanting to gain the trust of people to convert them, rather than force them into it, and Tristan just got visions directly from Menoth, and seems likely to be at the center of a scheme of the god himself, pointing out that probably Menoth isn't displeased at all by his approach.
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