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Post by pangurban on Jun 19, 2017 14:02:06 GMT
My solution to the "problem" of proxy bases is to make a rule stating that proxies standing in for models currently in play need to be labelled and proxies not representing models currently in play must be removed at the end of your turn. If this was standard then I would be fine with infinite proxy bases. I understand my opinion is very different then most people, but I agree with PP's proxy base rule. I've had people plan out entire turns during a tournament game. I get it, they want to be precise as possible. I don't mind them using up their time, and I don't mind sitting there watching them do it. The problem I run into is that I have ADD and it causes me to lose focus. As an example, at one tournament I went to my opponent took a 30 minute turn and planned out all of his activations. He also had to be careful because I had Axis so he was measuring against my countercharges too. Most of the way through his turn I realized that I had no idea what half the proxy bases were representing. I had been worrying about my lunch, and my blood sugars, and what to get my wife for her birthday, and whether that itch on my foot was something in my shoe or it was going to fall off when I stood up cause me to have to get a peg leg. Would I look good as a peg legged pirate? The usual stuff. He had those standard muse on minis proxy bases and they all looked the same. So then at this point I just had to take his word for it. Now I'm not saying he was cheating, but I wouldn't have known if he was anyway. I didn't want to say anything and make him repeat a bunch of stuff because that would just have used up more of his time. I don't have this problem with a limited number of bases because I don't have to remember that far back, or with only two bases I can usually figure out what's going on if I zone out. It's only when there's like 12-15 similar bases just sitting all across the table where I just look at it and go "I forgot what the Firetruck is happening." If they all had to be labelled then I'd be fine with that. I'd be able to quickly see what everything was. Unrestricted premeasuring does not mean "do a bunch of stuff with a ton of proxies, then replace everything and call it good". I don't mind players using 35 proxies, half a dozen widgets, seven placeholders and three tape measures to figure out their ideal turn; what I do mind is if they assume whatever table state they arrive at automatically equals the intended game state. That's not how it works, because in a non-negligible number if cases it's not verifiable anymore whether that game state is legal. Premeasure as much as you want, put down whatever proxies and markers you want to help you resolve your turn to perfection; but when it comes to getting your models where you want them to go play the actual activations, in proper order. Again, leave whatever marker you measured out so you know where the actual model should go and you can resolve its activation quickly - but do the actual activation properly.
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Post by jisidro on Jun 19, 2017 14:35:11 GMT
In a Blood Bowl field it costs the same to move in any direction whe clearly you are not moving the same distance. It works great when the only shooting comes from passing, not so great when attacking at range is a big part of the game.
When you have the grid, actual range is irrelevant though, since you never measure anything (well, you do measure passing in BB, but that's stupid to begin with - everything should be measured in squares). But if that is a bother for some reason, just make it a hex grid. The hex grid is not a good representation either, especially with facing. Directly towards/away just breaks up is it's not immediately adjacent, toward/away will be hilarious... Perhaps if you faced the vertex (Never read this word in my life, Google told me to do it!)instead of the sides... but even so...
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princeraven
Junior Strategist
Shredder spam is best spam
Posts: 256
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Post by princeraven on Jun 19, 2017 14:42:58 GMT
The thing is you already had to actually play your activations out in order. Not doing so is cheating regardless of this rule.
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Post by oncouch1 on Jun 19, 2017 16:08:45 GMT
You could not be more wrong, even if you tried. Premeasuring added a greater level of intricacy of play and clarity of intention. Both constructs that are of supreme importance to a clean competitive game. Anyone in disagreement wants a sloppier game with less interesting tools available. I am sorry you prefer a dumbed down game with more arguments. That totally sounds better, like the most bestest game ever. Really? You would prefer a physical ability to be more relevant than an opponent who can make optimal decisions based on open information. You prefer to beat an opponent's eyes vs their brain, impressive. I want to face actual critical thinking skills instead of ''this is the optimal choice in this situaation because i measured everything and have perfect information'' which is more mindless than actually having to gauge distances and then make conclusions from that. The game is more mindless than it was previously because you always have perfect information, and thus always know what choices are the best ones. Before, you had to actually deduce what the possibilities for your movements were, and then decide which was best. Now in mk3 we shortcutted all that out. Now you know all the possibilities and thus can immediately know the best course of action. Well you proved me wrong, it is possible for you to be more wrong. Knowing what your options are allows you to make the right choice every time? You must be the greatest chess player of all time. Every piece has the ability to move in a finite manner this allows both players to know exactly what moves are possible. You are saying given that data set of what every piece on the board can do you will make the correct decision 100% of the time? That is the most ridiculous claim I have ever heard. If you actually believe that you really need to reevaluate your decision making process. You are missing a lot either through hubris or lack of awareness of the complexity of the options available.
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Post by greytemplar on Jun 19, 2017 17:02:54 GMT
I want to face actual critical thinking skills instead of ''this is the optimal choice in this situaation because i measured everything and have perfect information'' which is more mindless than actually having to gauge distances and then make conclusions from that. The game is more mindless than it was previously because you always have perfect information, and thus always know what choices are the best ones. Before, you had to actually deduce what the possibilities for your movements were, and then decide which was best. Now in mk3 we shortcutted all that out. Now you know all the possibilities and thus can immediately know the best course of action. False. How is "knowing how far things are away from each other" immediately leading to "knowing the best action"? Seriously, explain the logic to me because I seriously don't get it. Because it immediately eliminates the vast majority of potential outcomes. Making the decision making process far easier. Thus, it dumbs the game down. Instead of having to actually put some skill into deciding what course of actions are possible, and then determining which of those actions would be best. You simply measure what actions are possible(no thinking whatsoever), and then you can just do number crunching to see which is best. Very little skill at all. And don't give me any of this "not everybody can guess distances equally" crap. That's totally false. If you have enough depth perception to actually function enough to even play a game that takes place in three dimensional space, you can learn to guess distances. Anybody who is handicapped enough to not be able to learn how to guess the distances between two points would be handicapped enough to where they literally could not play this game at all, premeasuring or not.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 19, 2017 17:07:28 GMT
Because it immediately eliminates the vast majority of potential outcomes. Then lets Randomize everything. From movement to gun ranges, and use a 1d10 for attack rolls and a 1d20 for boosted ones. And then the smarter players will be able to use the more smart calculable odds. Figure out what odds are possible (Very smart). The more elements that you don't know the smarter the game is. For me before pre measuring was just an eye test skill. Guys with great eye coordination rule, and those that don't drool. If you think that's vital for the game that's awesome if it's not OK.
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Post by greytemplar on Jun 19, 2017 17:10:18 GMT
I want to face actual critical thinking skills instead of ''this is the optimal choice in this situaation because i measured everything and have perfect information'' which is more mindless than actually having to gauge distances and then make conclusions from that. The game is more mindless than it was previously because you always have perfect information, and thus always know what choices are the best ones. Before, you had to actually deduce what the possibilities for your movements were, and then decide which was best. Now in mk3 we shortcutted all that out. Now you know all the possibilities and thus can immediately know the best course of action. Well you proved me wrong, it is possible for you to be more wrong. Knowing what your options are allows you to make the right choice every time? You must be the greatest chess player of all time. Every piece has the ability to move in a finite manner this allows both players to know exactly what moves are possible. You are saying given that data set of what every piece on the board can do you will make the correct decision 100% of the time? That is the most ridiculous claim I have ever heard. If you actually believe that you really need to reevaluate your decision making process. You are missing a lot either through hubris or lack of awareness of the complexity of the options available. "You're wrong!" "No you're wrong!" Blah blah blah... We're just really going around in circles here. I really cannot fathom you people who can't see how the game has been dumbed down like this. And you're just reduced to name calling. Yes, there is still a lot of skill involved in WMH, but it has been massively reduced now that we have perfect board state information. Your chess analogy totally fails. It's a completely different game. Namely the fact you only get 1 move a turn. It makes the analogy you're trying to make a poor one. Maybe if chess allowed each player to move each of his pieces once then you'd have something, but thats not the case. So you can't equate this to chess because you don't have perfect board state information as the boardstate is constantly changing every time you make a move.
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Post by greytemplar on Jun 19, 2017 17:12:14 GMT
Because it immediately eliminates the vast majority of potential outcomes. Then lets Randomize everything. From movement to gun ranges, and use a 1d10 for attack rolls and a 1d20 for boosted ones. And then the smarter players will be able to use the more smart calculable odds. Figure out what odds are possible (Very smart). The more elements that you don't know the smarter the game is. For me before pre measuring was just an eye test skill. Guys with great eye coordination rule, and those that don't drool. If you think that's vital for the game that's awesome if it's not OK. Incorrect. If you have enough depth perception to function in every day life, you have enough to learn how to guesstimate distances. If you don't have enough depth perception to guess distances, you couldn't play this game at all. Premeasuring or not. You'd be incapable of moving your models or placing measuring sticks with any precision, you'd be wobbling all over the place like a drunken loon. Since I assume nobody here actually has this issue, you are all capable of learning the skill of how to guess distances. It's not some magical ability you're either born with or not.
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Post by Cryptix on Jun 19, 2017 17:23:39 GMT
I have used proxy markers for the first time this weekend, when I was planning out a Strakhov assassination. I used only 1 and it worked out fine (well not really for me, when I forgot Goreshade's battlegroup has Stealth and can countercharge >_>). Literally the only thing that changed for me from mk2 to mk3 was that I could make measurements to an intended target before I activated.
I'm watching you grey. You're starting to get into insult territory.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 19, 2017 17:23:44 GMT
Incorrect. If you have enough depth perception to function in every day life, you have enough to learn how to guesstimate distances. Then if it's such a minor skill then why is it a problem to premeasure if super smart people are capable of making perfect judgments anyway? If its the element of uncertainty that makes the game for super duper smart people then why not randomize stuff more? Instead of moving you roll a 1d3 for every movment score you have. On a 1 move 0.5, on a 2 move 1 and on a 3 move 1.5. So smart and makes every option not obvious.
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Post by oncouch1 on Jun 19, 2017 18:58:24 GMT
Well you proved me wrong, it is possible for you to be more wrong. Knowing what your options are allows you to make the right choice every time? You must be the greatest chess player of all time. Every piece has the ability to move in a finite manner this allows both players to know exactly what moves are possible. You are saying given that data set of what every piece on the board can do you will make the correct decision 100% of the time? That is the most ridiculous claim I have ever heard. If you actually believe that you really need to reevaluate your decision making process. You are missing a lot either through hubris or lack of awareness of the complexity of the options available. "You're wrong!" "No you're wrong!" Blah blah blah... We're just really going around in circles here. I really cannot fathom you people who can't see how the game has been dumbed down like this. And you're just reduced to name calling. Yes, there is still a lot of skill involved in WMH, but it has been massively reduced now that we have perfect board state information. Your chess analogy totally fails. It's a completely different game. Namely the fact you only get 1 move a turn. It makes the analogy you're trying to make a poor one. Maybe if chess allowed each player to move each of his pieces once then you'd have something, but thats not the case. So you can't equate this to chess because you don't have perfect board state information as the boardstate is constantly changing every time you make a move. Whoosh.....that was the point, you may have missed it. The chess analogy works well it is your lack of abstract thought that causes the hitch. Each turn in warmachine is akin to a turn in chess. Both trade material, both have a set (generally in warmachine, though there are small exceptions) board state when you take that turn. I understand that you do not understand, and it does not surprise me. The most divisive construct that separates chess and warmachine is the addition of a non player variance system. That should be all the leveling of the play field required to make sure the best player doesn't win 100% of the time. Adding additional physical variance, that takes years to hone, is unnecessary. I am sorry you need a physical barrier to entry for the game. This sort of thing would not affect me. I am excellent at gauging distances I honed that ability playing many terrible gw games. The difference between us is simply I would rather play/beat an opponent's brain than their eyes.
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kuarnix
Junior Strategist
Posts: 145
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Post by kuarnix on Jun 19, 2017 19:19:06 GMT
This is why we have good matches
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Jun 19, 2017 19:28:30 GMT
Then lets Randomize everything. From movement to gun ranges, and use a 1d10 for attack rolls and a 1d20 for boosted ones. And then the smarter players will be able to use the more smart calculable odds. Figure out what odds are possible (Very smart). The more elements that you don't know the smarter the game is. For me before pre measuring was just an eye test skill. Guys with great eye coordination rule, and those that don't drool. If you think that's vital for the game that's awesome if it's not OK. Incorrect. If you have enough depth perception to function in every day life, you have enough to learn how to guesstimate distances. If you don't have enough depth perception to guess distances, you couldn't play this game at all. Premeasuring or not. You'd be incapable of moving your models or placing measuring sticks with any precision, you'd be wobbling all over the place like a drunken loon. Since I assume nobody here actually has this issue, you are all capable of learning the skill of how to guess distances. It's not some magical ability you're either born with or not. HI! I have astigmatism. I have a genetic disposition to have bad depth perception. Glasses do not rectify this entirely. I can pass driver exams but not without my glasses. I started playing at the start of MKII and continually failed to gauge distances. So I had to turtle up more than I should. I only ever engaged when I was within walk distances and still declared a charge to meet the distance. So with the change in MKIII I've become a much better player. I don't rely on premeasuring like an crutch but I do take the numbers into account and plan accordingly. So I absolutely cannot get behind removing premeasuring because I would literally be disadvantaged due to my eye sight, not my skill as a player.
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Post by Swampmist on Jun 19, 2017 19:35:37 GMT
Then lets Randomize everything. From movement to gun ranges, and use a 1d10 for attack rolls and a 1d20 for boosted ones. And then the smarter players will be able to use the more smart calculable odds. Figure out what odds are possible (Very smart). The more elements that you don't know the smarter the game is. For me before pre measuring was just an eye test skill. Guys with great eye coordination rule, and those that don't drool. If you think that's vital for the game that's awesome if it's not OK. Incorrect. If you have enough depth perception to function in every day life, you have enough to learn how to guesstimate distances. If you don't have enough depth perception to guess distances, you couldn't play this game at all. Premeasuring or not. You'd be incapable of moving your models or placing measuring sticks with any precision, you'd be wobbling all over the place like a drunken loon. Since I assume nobody here actually has this issue, you are all capable of learning the skill of how to guess distances. It's not some magical ability you're either born with or not. Chiming in; I routinely walk into random objects, can't tell the difference between one foot and 5, and lack basically every part of spatial awareness. I would not be playing a game without premeasuring
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Post by The Trane on Jun 19, 2017 19:46:37 GMT
Chiming in; I routinely walk into random objects, can't tell the difference between one foot and 5, and lack basically every part of spatial awareness. I would not be playing a game without premeasuring Sounds suspiciously similar to my wife ... or ... wait ... Honey, is that you ...? Seriously, I personally like the new rules. To some of the recent commentators, remember that we're still allowed to premeasure. It's the multi-move planning that has disappeared. Comparing to Guild Ball, where premeasurement is free, I feel that it's less of a problem there, as it's a game where you alternate with moving a single model. Planning out several steps largely becomes unnecessary as the game state changes in between – and you risk giving the opponent hints about your tactics. In Warmachine, on the other hand, I find excessive premeasurement just too boring to watch (yes, it's a subjective opinion, as opinions tend to be). Moreover, I agree with the idea of committing and taking some risks that PP seems to want to advocate with this. It's a bit of a cumbersome rule and it will likely need some more polishing, but all in all I think it's good for the game and the feeling when playing it. That said, if someone developed a hex-based wargame of this size (32 mm models, 3'–4' play area) I'd be very interested. It would certainly speed things up even more.
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