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Post by ForEver_Blight on Jun 16, 2017 16:14:58 GMT
Picking flying models is a *choice* for a single caster. I can take ANY beast with that. It's supposed to be an occupying force with the most magically talented nyss, something that is valuable and in short supply. So yes you defend something valuable like magical territory and magical elves with a lot of dragons. 'magical territory?' If the theme is supposed to focus on magically talented Nyss, then the free points should be for taking units/solos with magic ability. As to Fyanna2 being a 'choice...' yeah, so is Harkevich in Jaws with 10 Marauders. Nothing stopping you from taking a bunch of Kossites and manhunters. It's still not 'thematic,' though...and neither is the most common example of oracles. Yes, magical territory - it's "supposed" that the nyss are researching magic in other lands. [rant] But that has nothing to do with balancing the theme. Half the people are arguing EVERYONE needs a heavy spam theme. But you're arguing that ONE caster in ONE faction with ONE theme to make ONE list is raising absolute hell. So then why don't we make everyone happy by removing Fyanna and Harkevich from the game entirely. They are the only ones who ever play in theme and make things "unthematic" or broken. Problem solved Or maybe people should actually field things that can boost to hit or make things stationary and see that Fyanna falls the f- apart at the slightest tech. Do you really think Sorscha cares if I have 16 Def? What about Circle with cheap access to doppler bark. Or shadow bind. Or knockdown the caster who doesn't have the serpentine rule... [/rant] Fyanna is a disjointed caster that barely has 1 good trick. She has counters in every faction. People are absolutely unwilling to use said counters. So Fyanna gets played.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Jun 16, 2017 16:28:37 GMT
'magical territory?' If the theme is supposed to focus on magically talented Nyss, then the free points should be for taking units/solos with magic ability. As to Fyanna2 being a 'choice...' yeah, so is Harkevich in Jaws with 10 Marauders. Nothing stopping you from taking a bunch of Kossites and manhunters. It's still not 'thematic,' though...and neither is the most common example of oracles. Yes, magical territory - it's "supposed" that the nyss are researching magic in other lands. [rant] But that has nothing to do with balancing the theme. Half the people are arguing EVERYONE needs a heavy spam theme. But you're arguing that ONE caster in ONE faction with ONE theme to make ONE list is raising absolute hell. So then why don't we make everyone happy by removing Fyanna and Harkevich from the game entirely. They are the only ones who ever play in theme and make things "unthematic" or broken. Problem solved Or maybe people should actually field things that can boost to hit or make things stationary and see that Fyanna falls the f- apart at the slightest tech. Do you really think Sorscha cares if I have 16 Def? What about Circle with cheap access to doppler bark. Or shadow bind. Or knockdown the caster who doesn't have the serpentine rule... [/rant] Fyanna is a disjointed caster that barely has 1 good trick. She has counters in every faction. People are absolutely unwilling to use said counters. So Fyanna gets played. Shifting the goalposts. Your issue wasn't about power, it was about the lack of 'thematic' content of certain lists. Are you arguing Fyanna flying Circus is thematic? Because it ain't. Often the only magic users you see in theme are Fyanna and one sorceress. As to power, each faction having one good answer to it doesn't make it 'easy' to answer. It's counters are fairly specific, constrain your list building choices, and in some factions don't exist ('caster is vulnerable to knockdown' is NOT a weakness for a list, it's a standard feature of most casters) Also, lol at Fyanna being a bad caster out of theme. Just...lol.
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Post by Swampmist on Jun 16, 2017 16:31:48 GMT
Again, the flying beasts are the more thematic beasts for the theme. Unlike the carnivean chasis, they all have magical, movement-based animi. Also, keep in mind that the stuff that can be free in Oracles is ENTIRELY magical. Sorcs on Hellion, The Forsaken, Sheps, Succubi, and Bayal all either have the magic ability, or something very similar.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Jun 16, 2017 16:53:10 GMT
Again, the flying beasts are the more thematic beasts for the theme. Unlike the carnivean chasis, they all have magical, movement-based animi. Also, keep in mind that the stuff that can be free in Oracles is ENTIRELY magical. Sorcs on Hellion, The Forsaken, Sheps, Succubi, and Bayal all either have the magic ability, or something very similar. Stop thinking about what could be in the list. We're not allowed to look at how it was designed, we have to look at a single list popularized by a single tournament player. That's how you balance a game, around one list. [/sarcasm] Jaws of the wolf has access to Kossite. But because no one plays them, does that now make every single JoW list unthematic and broken? Knocking down a caster doesn't affect every caster. but it's always the much better choice against high Def casters. I don't understand how this is "no an weakness" when it is literally the direct weakness to ever high def low armor caster. As for power. What happens if she takes an oracles list full of Carniveans, Typhon, and Zuriel? they get knocked down and her feat is useless. So yes, outside of this one specific list she is an AVERAGE caster. If you take her out of theme she gets even worse, just like every other caster we have. Get back to me after you play a couple hundred games as Legion. If you already have then I'd really love to know what lists you were playing to have so much success you think it's OP.
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Post by Swampmist on Jun 16, 2017 17:03:31 GMT
But that's the thing; nearly half of the list(model-wise) IS magical, because all of the free solos are. Now, would I rather we had gotten more magical infantyry and they where the real focus for the theme? sure! Hell, at that point limit us to the flying heavies, the BB and the Bloodseer if you really need to, and give us a ogrun+heavy beast theme. But the current iteration certainly doesn't fail to be fluffy as-is.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Jun 16, 2017 17:05:10 GMT
But that's the thing; nearly half of the list(model-wise) IS magical, because all of the free solos are. Now, would I rather we had gotten more magical infantyry and they where the real focus for the theme? sure! Hell, at that point limit us to the flying heavies, the BB and the Bloodseer if you really need to, and give us a ogrun+heavy beast theme. But the current iteration certainly doesn't fail to be fluffy as-is. Especially when CID Throne comes through and people start running double throne in Oracles. Can't gripe about it not being magic~y enough then.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Jun 16, 2017 22:51:50 GMT
Okay, first off, it's a huge stretch to call any animus 'more magical' than another. They're all spells, they all act like spells, they all have effects that could be described as 'magical.' I see no reasons why flying beasts are more thematic in this regard. In particular, if the purpose is to take and hold magical territory, land-based beasts are more appropriate as a choice.
Model count is also a huge stretch - yes, half the models in my army are magical (shepherds are not magical, btw, nor are forsaken in the conventional sense.) however, 100/103 points were spent on warbeasts. It's disingenuous to say that magical models make up a significant proportion of that list.
A thematic list formulation for Oracles would give points based on the number of models with Magic Ability, not the number of beasts.
As to 'one list formulation' making the list unthematic...well, in the case of Jaws, it's not just Harkevich, it's Karchev and pretty much anyone who runs a serious list in Jaws. The list DOES NOT incentivize you to take kossites, it DOES incentivize you to take jacks (and gives you all of the support.) The same goes for Oracles - yes, you can run it with a unit of hex hunters, but that's not the way it gets run in practice, and the list does not reward you for running them in particular. If theme lists are intended to incentivize certain themes, they need to give their benefits for adhering to the theme, not 'jack/beastspam X, and my free solos are flavor Y so it's thematic.'
Finally, Fyanna runs a perfectly fine combined arms list out of theme, thank you very much. It just doesn't have the broadly good matchups and paucity of serious counters that the flying circus does, nor does it benefit from free solos. Swordsmen at DEF 17 are excellent, with Fury they're even better. Same goes for Raptors, to a lesser extent hex hunters, and Blightblades. As to her feat being negated by knockdown...seriously, cry me a river. Your caster's feat is negated by very specific tech that not every army has access to in large quantities, which typically needs to hit to be effective, and requires the investment of additional resources into every model you intend to kill? How firetrucking horrible. No, it's not Saeryn from Mk2 level powerful with the Carnivean Chassis, but it's hardly a bad feat with them just because there are some counters outside of a few specific pieces of tech certain lists/factions don't have access to.
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Post by Azuresun on Jun 16, 2017 23:05:54 GMT
Yes, magical territory - it's "supposed" that the nyss are researching magic in other lands. [rant] But that has nothing to do with balancing the theme. Half the people are arguing EVERYONE needs a heavy spam theme. But you're arguing that ONE caster in ONE faction with ONE theme to make ONE list is raising absolute hell. So then why don't we make everyone happy by removing Fyanna and Harkevich from the game entirely. They are the only ones who ever play in theme and make things "unthematic" or broken. Problem solved Or maybe people should actually field things that can boost to hit or make things stationary and see that Fyanna falls the f- apart at the slightest tech. Do you really think Sorscha cares if I have 16 Def? What about Circle with cheap access to doppler bark. Or shadow bind. Or knockdown the caster who doesn't have the serpentine rule... [/rant] Fyanna is a disjointed caster that barely has 1 good trick. She has counters in every faction. People are absolutely unwilling to use said counters. So Fyanna gets played. I never claimed Fyanna + flying beasts was broken. It's undeniably a good combo, like a lot of other things across factions. My problem is with Fyanna + flying beasts + up to 20pts free stuff for taking those beasts + other special rules. Why are themes making already good lists better?
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princeraven
Junior Strategist
Shredder spam is best spam
Posts: 256
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Post by princeraven on Jun 17, 2017 1:41:24 GMT
I never claimed Fyanna + flying beasts was broken. It's undeniably a good combo, like a lot of other things across factions. My problem is with Fyanna + flying beasts + up to 20pts free stuff for taking those beasts + other special rules. Why are themes making already good lists better?This is the problem with theme forces like Oracles, Storm Division, all the Khador ones. They lack the necessary restrictions that would it worth considering whether or not to play in theme instead of an obvious choice for many casters. Personally I'd prefer it if every theme was as competitive as Children of the Dragon but since, unlike me, PP wants themes in competitive play, I'd say Ravens of War is a good example of how to make a theme force restrictive enough that it's worth considering playing out of theme but also enticing enough to consider playing in theme.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Jun 17, 2017 2:33:55 GMT
Again, if you were the one playing the lists you would understand. A knocked down Typhon or Zuriel dies a horribly easy death. Def 17 swordsmen doesn't matter when the e-leaps jump off a lightning immune model. Everything out there has another list that can counter it. But it's amazing how all that has to be ignored when talking about Fyanna 2. But I'm sick of hearing the whining and trying to reply with actual experience, only to be "defeated" by more bias and narrow minded complaints.
So what would placate your unwavering perspective? Remove her feat? Remove serpentine? remove the theme? Every single thing she does right now can be done outside of theme. She just looses 1 Neraph. So there is literally no minor change that can be made. You have to do something extreme and that just wipes her from the game. Which then if we're all honest about balance, every other faction needs it's best caster removed from the game. Gotta make it fair and equal.
As for the theme itself. I am totally fine with the bonus being switched to units instead of beasts. But I then require Legion get a Beast theme. That will in all likely hood be better than Oracles. So that's also fine with me.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Jun 17, 2017 2:53:25 GMT
And just before you start throwing out outrageous changes. Do this, if you can be an honest human being, Seek out your local Legion player. Ask them if they would let you play their Fyanna list with your change. Then keep playing that change for the next 10 games. Then come back and report with your experiences. I'd love to hear it.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Jun 17, 2017 2:59:05 GMT
Yes, I want the bonus to be switched to units, or rather, 'models with the magic ability * action.'
As to legion getting a beast theme, that'd be fine...if the beasts that can be taken are in some way restricted (so let's say, Carnivean chassis only) and you can't just take all of the support you'd otherwise want (so let's say...no forsaken.) that'd be fine by me, and would parallel comparable themes in Circle, Retribution, and other factions with acceptable jack/beast themes.
No theme should represent a no-brainer upgrade over playing out of theme, and in reviewing all of the themes I have problems with, my main issue is that they are simply not restrictive enough, in terms of either the models they can bring that let you qualify for free stuff, or the faction staples they let you access (often for free.)
Storm Division gives you Jr. for no particular thematic reason. Heavy metal gives you all Cygnar non-character jacks, and the unholy support trifecta of Arlan, Jr, and Squire Oracles gives you all your beasts, and your forsaken, shepherds, and sorceresses (for free) Jaws of the Wolf gives you all your non-character jacks, as well as your forge seers (and has the stupid, stupid benefit for cancelling AD.)
ForEver_Blight, you have a massive firetrucking chip on your shoulder. No one has said suggested that Fyanna2 is too good. I've posted multiple times saying that I believe a good chunk of legion stuff deserves buffs. No one is trying to take your toys away. You're taking this exceedingly personally, when the issue is NOT about any specific caster, but about the fact that the theme is non-thematic, encourages spam, and provides a strict upgrade over playing out of theme for a number of lists.
As to the existence of counterplay to Def-skew...yeah. It exists. that's a damn good thing. Even if our opponent is circumventing your high DEF with AOEs, KD, or electro-leaps, they're investing resources to do so, and getting less work done than they would otherwise. So what if your feat isn't god-tier into every. single. matchup. The list rolls opponents that don't have specific answers to it (some of which aren't available in faction) and still has play into bad matchups. Sounds pretty damn good to me.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Jun 17, 2017 3:11:25 GMT
Yes, I want the bonus to be switched to units, or rather, 'models with the magic ability * action.' As to legion getting a beast theme, that'd be fine...if the beasts that can be taken are in some way restricted (so let's say, Carnivean chassis only) and you can't just take all of the support you'd otherwise want (so let's say...no forsaken.) that'd be fine by me, and would parallel comparable themes in Circle, Retribution, and other factions with acceptable jack/beast themes. No theme should represent a no-brainer upgrade over playing out of theme, and in reviewing all of the themes I have problems with, my main issue is that they are simply not restrictive enough, in terms of either the models they can bring that let you qualify for free stuff, or the faction staples they let you access (often for free.) Storm Division gives you Jr. for no particular thematic reason. Heavy metal gives you all Cygnar non-character jacks, and the unholy support trifecta of Arlan, Jr, and Squire Oracles gives you all your beasts, and your forsaken, shepherds, and sorceresses (for free) Jaws of the Wolf gives you all your non-character jacks, as well as your forge seers (and has the stupid, stupid benefit for cancelling AD.) ForEver_Blight, you have a massive firetrucking chip on your shoulder. No one has said suggested that Fyanna2 is too good. I've posted multiple times saying that I believe a good chunk of legion stuff deserves buffs. No one is trying to take your toys away. You're taking this exceedingly personally, when the issue is NOT about any specific caster, but about the fact that the theme is non-thematic, encourages spam, and provides a strict upgrade over playing out of theme for a number of lists. As to the existence of counterplay to Def-skew...yeah. It exists. that's a damn good thing. Even if our opponent is circumventing your high DEF with AOEs, KD, or electro-leaps, they're investing resources to do so, and getting less work done than they would otherwise. So what if your feat isn't god-tier into every. single. matchup. The list rolls opponents that don't have specific answers to it (some of which aren't available in faction) and still has play into bad matchups. Sounds pretty damn good to me. So no one should have good support models in theme if not all factions have it. Then we have to rewrite a lot of themes instead of fixing the few that aren't "the best". I have a chip on my shoulder because no one sites any other list in Oracles as being so overpowered. Wheres the complaints about our entire stable of casters that have access to that list. You say you're not complaining about Fyanna but the only references is people complaining about Fyanna. If you skew ARM (which is way more common) It's the exact same dedication of resources. Why is a Def feat more resource intensive than an Arm feat? Every single faction has access to boosted attack rolls. Even Mat 6 will hit feated angels on average rolls. Just like everyone can boost damage against armor. They both are resources spent and less work done. You're telling me Denny Ghost fleet isn't over powering because it's not a "nobrainer upgrade"? Ghost fleet is a huge tool box check that I don't have the answers to. Does that mean it has to get nerfed to make me happy? You are being very specific about a single facet of the game without balancing it against what is Actually present in the game.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Jun 17, 2017 3:20:42 GMT
As to legion getting a beast theme, that'd be fine...if the beasts that can be taken are in some way restricted (so let's say, Carnivean chassis only) and you can't just take all of the support you'd otherwise want (so let's say...no forsaken.) that'd be fine by me, and would parallel comparable themes in Circle, Retribution, and other factions with acceptable jack/beast themes. This particular BS is so biased it hurts. You obviously have a thorn in your side with flying Legion beasts. You say you're not attacking Fyanna but this still sounds so salty. No other caster pushes flyers to a decent level, so there would be no one else this could be targeting. Next, If you remove the Forsaken I pay 4 points to take them, and then use the free stuff for BETTER models. Forsaken are a crap tax we have to pay to have a decent game. Like the Krielstone and beast handlers. Both of which are decidedly better. Circle has some of the worst Themes. So why does legion have to get nerfed but not every other faction? Lets just bring every thing down to impossible to use. Again, have to be balanced. Even if we take the whining and change everything about Oracles. Even if the next theme makes sure to cater to your hatred of flyers. Fyanna takes Ravens of war and ruins your day just as easily by removing AD, Having all stealth infantry at Def 18, and ambushing pow 15 flying grotesques. That's just as capable. You will have gained no respite, and we would still be just as good.
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Post by borderprince on Jun 17, 2017 3:51:05 GMT
No theme should represent a no-brainer upgrade over playing out of theme, and in reviewing all of the themes I have problems with, my main issue is that they are simply not restrictive enough, in terms of either the models they can bring that let you qualify for free stuff, or the faction staples they let you access (often for free.) ... Jaws of the Wolf gives you all your non-character jacks, as well as your forge seers (and has the stupid, stupid benefit for cancelling AD.) I agree with the sentiment about no-brainers, I just don't think you're right about its application. I don't think Jaws is a no-brainer for playing certain casters, or even jack-heavy, outside of that theme. In theme problems: Caster only damage buffs - that's actually a big issue for Harkevich against some lists. Many Khador jacks hit hard, but Harkevich lacks the focus to load many of them up and he struggles against other lists full of high-ARM models or opponents with ARM buffs. In those cases he will often go for a scenario win, but that's probably going to be more difficult without much in the way of units. Very limited shield guards - this is a big one. The only protections a caster can get against shooting are hiding behind a jack and/or Kodiak clouds. Against Cygnar (in particular), that isn't good enough. And if anyone still played Eiryss1, she would rightly terrify most Jaws players. Limited ranged attrition/ability to scalpel out key targets - aside from Behemoth, there simply isn't that much high quality shooting available. Destroyers really need 2 FOC to maximise their potential. Forgeseers can help, but you're not doing it en masse. Beyond that requires using Widowmakers - that's still not much and eats into the bonuses from taking more jacks. No speed/deployment buff for jacks - if I'm playing jack heavy with SPD4 jacks, this is an issue. Harkevich, Butcher3 and Karchev can overcome it, but other casters can't. It keeps Winterguard Kommand as a serious contender for jack heavy lists too. Khador jacks are so slow that giving Advance Move is a seriously good benefit. Finally, I suspect PP evaluate themes in the context of their view of SR play. A pure jack/solo list will struggle with some aspects of scenario in SR2017 (especially with the changes to what solos can do). It's not just the theme, but the theme in the context of other aspects of the game, that determines how it is built.
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