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Post by pangurban on Jun 14, 2017 10:53:32 GMT
That's kinda arbitrary. All Jacks are just mass produced machines made for just about every scenario. They're not particularly, or visually distinct, or different from one another with base underlying mechanics. ALL of them are used for instance with Winter Guard (In fluff and imagery) depending on the area. In Jaws the idea is that the slower ones are moving up. But all of Khadors jacks are the slower ones. There is like 1 singular chassis in Cygnar that runs off Electricity, and again nothing about the Ironclad distances it from the Stormknights Well, yes, it's arbitrary. That's what's frustrating. Themes adhere to the fluff (except when they handwave in new fluff to justify a random pairing like JotW), but the writers don't seem to notice that giving some factions unlimited jack / beast options because fluff, and harshly limiting what others have access to because fluff....is gonna create imbalance. (edit) As a Mercenary player, where two of the themes limit what sort of jacks / monstrosities can be taken, and they all limit warcasters....I really notice the difference when I'm playing against a Legion army with the theme of "Uh....sometimes warlocks bring lots of beasts, I guess?", and since I don't have an equivalent jackspam theme, I'm playing 75pts vs 95pts. There's one Legion theme that allows this, but 1) half the time I don't see it played to that extreme and 2) the 20 free points aren't quite worth 20 points. I get what you're saying, just trying to add a little perspective, especially since in my opinion there are much more themes that aren't problematic at all than themes that are. Including jack themes like Forges of War.
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Post by kineath on Jun 14, 2017 13:09:46 GMT
To me its not the jack/beast themes that are problematic. Its the point difference between Jacks & beasts and between Jacks and infantry. I think Jacks overall are to cheap by 2 or 3 points. There are exeptions like most Retribution Jacks.
Also I still dislike the free points themes give. But that's another discussion.
Kineath
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Post by Gamingdevil on Jun 14, 2017 14:02:28 GMT
To me its not the jack/beast themes that are problematic. Its the point difference between Jacks & beasts and between Jacks and infantry. I think Jacks overall are to cheap by 2 or 3 points. There are exeptions like most Retribution Jacks. Also I still dislike the free points themes give. But that's another discussion. Kineath I hope you're not including Cryx jacks then either. I would actually say only a few jacks are too cheap and beasts are too expensive.
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Post by streetpizza on Jun 14, 2017 19:52:35 GMT
Jack and beast themes are fine. The problem lies in the math they've applied to unit themes and of that the problem is amplified in hordes.
All of the jack/beast themes allow for a free model per 25pts of jacks/beasts. This typically allows you to get 3 free models in a list as 75pts of jacks/beasts is easy to do when you apply WJP/WBP from the caster. Some caster's however can reach that mythical 4 free model point. This results in some lists being 16 to 20pts up instead of the more typical 8 to 15 presented in most themes. Allowing the larger point models like cav and dragoon solos further acerbates this problem (*shakes fist at oracles*).
The best beast/jack themes are now playing with an extra 16 to 20pts of support which is covering any weakness they might of otherwise had and enjoying two theme benefits on top of that. This would be fine if the other theme archetypes could keep up ... which brings us to:
Warmachine unit themes are typically in a decent spot. You can max out your theme benefits by taking a minimum amount of jacks and their required support models. In a 75 pt list this tyipcally looks like 60 to 65 pts of infantry. We can see this in action in the exmplar theme, ghost flee, storm division, and the winterguard theme where people have no problem getting 3 free solos. Those three free solos fall short of equaling the 4 free solos from the jack/beast themes but the warmachine player hasn't sacrificed list functionality to do so. As such if the theme benefits and models allowed are good enough then these infantry centric lists can still be viable (see the aforementioned stand outs).
When we extend the analysis over to the hordes side of the equation things aren't so rosy. Hordes armies MUST satisfy the fury requirement of their chosen warlock in order to function correctly. Some warlocks like Rhyas or Madrak can do this with a minimal battle group comprised of just their WBP worth of beasts. Others like Mohsar will struggle in this regard. In addition to the fury requirement these beasts also bring an important factor to the warlock by anchoring their spell lists with faction defining abilities like rush or primal which when left out can seriously hamper the functionality of the battle group. As such the hordes infantry themes struggle to reach that desired 60pts of theme models to maximize the points output of the list, so if you take these themes you're already starting from a 4 to 6pt deficit compared to a warmachine player or you're sacrificing battle group efficiency.
The last and saddest part of the equation (and the most debatable, seriously challenge me on this one if you think I'm wrong) is that hordes infantry is just subpar design wise compared to warmachine. When you start building with foam blocks compared to the other side using bricks your foundation just won't be nearly as solid. As such the hordes infantry lists suffer accordingly.
There are three very simple fixes that would really help these themes without having to put their units through CID:
- Change hordes infantry centric themes to give their free models for every 17pts of models. 15 is too low as you could reach 5 free models per theme but 17 allows you an extra 24 pts for battle group or support after reaching 3 free models or 7 pts if you went full ham with 4 free models which seems reasonable to me.
- Allow the character and large based solos to be free in all infantry themes. Free Daragh, Markov,Gravus, Annyssa, Morraig, wolf riders solo or Horthal are all really good but are balanced out by the limitations of the themes they're allowed in. Most of the time this isn't a problem (sometimes it might be *cough storm division cough cough*) but most of the time its offset by having one less free solo than the beast/jack themes. Obviously you need to do this with some kind of analysis on what the list can do as solos like the drakhun could get stupid quick in a MoW theme but that's what design is about.
- Put better design thought into how the cheap solos can be packaged together as freebies to make them more attractive. They did this perfectly in Creator's might with the wracks so how about other places? Multiple shepherds for free together? 3x war wolves for free in the wild hunt? How about 2x gallows groves or 3x spell martyrs? Allow these themes to equal the others by making their cheap freebie options actually be attractive to help improve list efficiency.
Anyway this has been a longer post than intended so I guess that's my 4c.
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Post by Cryptix on Jun 15, 2017 2:20:53 GMT
If PP really wished to make themes based on fluff, then JotW would be Pathfinder jacks only and Heavy Metal would n Centurion chassis only. But they're not, and that's what we have to deal with.
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Post by Swampmist on Jun 15, 2017 2:43:41 GMT
Thing is, if you're being rude for a reason, you're still indistinguishable from people who are being rude for no reason. I don't read either long enough to see if there's a difference. I'm sorry I triggered you, please enjoy the rest of the conversation without me from the comfort of your safe zone. No reason to be rude just for the sake of being rude
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Post by Azuresun on Jun 16, 2017 8:06:16 GMT
There's one Legion theme that allows this, but 1) half the time I don't see it played to that extreme and 2) the 20 free points aren't quite worth 20 points. I get what you're saying, just trying to add a little perspective, especially since in my opinion there are much more themes that aren't problematic at all than themes that are. Including jack themes like Forges of War. Locally, Fyanna2 Oracles 95-in-75 pretty much is Legion. And I'd be complaining a lot less if everyone could get their heavy-spam themes. Unfortunately, it seems Mercenaries and Minions are doomed to have themes that are actually thematic, rather than straight power-ups to lists that didn't actually need boosting.
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Post by Big Fat Troll on Jun 16, 2017 14:11:19 GMT
Problem is, when a theme gives free stuff based on taking jacks, and doesn't restrict the kinds of jacks you can take, it'll end up being a jack theme, unless it excludes truly essential support pieces. And one other problem with the themes so far is that "all non-character jacks" is very inclusive, broad and....well, non-thematic. Given that infantry is more marginal in Mk3, losing access to some of them is less of a hindrance than being limited to (say) Juggernaut-based jacks for Winterguard, electric jacks for Storm Division, etc. The machines are varied and built for different roles, but apart from Circle, there's no acknowledgement of that in the themes. That's a good point. So you'll see things like POD being better for Gunny than Kriel Company...
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Jun 16, 2017 14:33:38 GMT
There's one Legion theme that allows this, but 1) half the time I don't see it played to that extreme and 2) the 20 free points aren't quite worth 20 points. I get what you're saying, just trying to add a little perspective, especially since in my opinion there are much more themes that aren't problematic at all than themes that are. Including jack themes like Forges of War. Locally, Fyanna2 Oracles 95-in-75 pretty much is Legion. And I'd be complaining a lot less if everyone could get their heavy-spam themes. Unfortunately, it seems Mercenaries and Minions are doomed to have themes that are actually thematic, rather than straight power-ups to lists that didn't actually need boosting. You're making a generalization based on a local enviroment. That's less than accurate. It's not Legion for me. It's not legion for a lot of the discussions I've seen in this forum alone. Doesn't make either more true than the other. You'd be complaining less if sub-faction were treated as main-factions. They aren't and won't be. they are limited in models and in the setting fluff. That's not an indication that the entire game is broken. Themes are not meant to all be equal. It's meant to show the difference in the available strength of the faction's war efforts. Minions, CoC, Mercs, soon Grymkin are all the lesser of the factions in every resource. Resources are required to win a war. If you're fighting with a mangled together group of mercs, mutant pigs, or childrens nightmares. You are by far the lowest on the factional GDP scale. Therefore fluff wise you don't get to put 11 heavies on the table and call it a "scouting" force. That's why Legion is screwed over in 2 out of 3 themes. Everblight [faction] from what I figure of the lore does not have the endless support of an entire country like Cygnar or Khador. They don't even have the bodies to mount a true army; they have a limited supply of blighted elves and ogrun. So we surely do not have the ability to just make dragons on an assembly line. Nephilim are actually born beasts, so it makes sense to have a theme based on blighted nyss and nephilim. Needing a true scouting force of fast, long range beasts and infantry makes sense. Dedicating the few specially gifted nyss to hold an area, needs to be protected by any means necessary. So you take the big [beast] guns. It makes sense thematically to do these things. Now there are stupid exceptions like Jaws of the Wolf. I hate it for everything it tries to stand for. It's just stupid and ssenseless...
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Post by oncomingstorm on Jun 16, 2017 15:38:17 GMT
Locally, Fyanna2 Oracles 95-in-75 pretty much is Legion. And I'd be complaining a lot less if everyone could get their heavy-spam themes. Unfortunately, it seems Mercenaries and Minions are doomed to have themes that are actually thematic, rather than straight power-ups to lists that didn't actually need boosting. You're making a generalization based on a local enviroment. That's less than accurate. It's not Legion for me. It's not legion for a lot of the discussions I've seen in this forum alone. Doesn't make either more true than the other. You'd be complaining less if sub-faction were treated as main-factions. They aren't and won't be. they are limited in models and in the setting fluff. That's not an indication that the entire game is broken. Themes are not meant to all be equal. It's meant to show the difference in the available strength of the faction's war efforts. Minions, CoC, Mercs, soon Grymkin are all the lesser of the factions in every resource. Resources are required to win a war. If you're fighting with a mangled together group of mercs, mutant pigs, or childrens nightmares. You are by far the lowest on the factional GDP scale. Therefore fluff wise you don't get to put 11 heavies on the table and call it a "scouting" force. That's why Legion is screwed over in 2 out of 3 themes. Everblight [faction] from what I figure of the lore does not have the endless support of an entire country like Cygnar or Khador. They don't even have the bodies to mount a true army; they have a limited supply of blighted elves and ogrun. So we surely do not have the ability to just make dragons on an assembly line. Nephilim are actually born beasts, so it makes sense to have a theme based on blighted nyss and nephilim. Needing a true scouting force of fast, long range beasts and infantry makes sense. Dedicating the few specially gifted nyss to hold an area, needs to be protected by any means necessary. So you take the big [beast] guns. It makes sense thematically to do these things. Now there are stupid exceptions like Jaws of the Wolf. I hate it for everything it tries to stand for. It's just stupid and ssenseless... There is no basis for complaining about Jaws of the Wolf (and Heavy Metal, for that metal) and saying Oracles is OK. The only real difference between them is that Legion out of theme is much worse off than Cygnar or Khador out of theme, but both of them follow the same kind of 'logic' of 1. unrestricted beast/jack options 2. unrestricted beast/jack support and 3. free points for beast/jacks. Legion needs more a buff overall than Cygnar or Khador, but the essential elements of the themes are very similar (though jaws' no AD if very irritating.)
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Jun 16, 2017 15:53:33 GMT
You're making a generalization based on a local enviroment. That's less than accurate. It's not Legion for me. It's not legion for a lot of the discussions I've seen in this forum alone. Doesn't make either more true than the other. You'd be complaining less if sub-faction were treated as main-factions. They aren't and won't be. they are limited in models and in the setting fluff. That's not an indication that the entire game is broken. Themes are not meant to all be equal. It's meant to show the difference in the available strength of the faction's war efforts. Minions, CoC, Mercs, soon Grymkin are all the lesser of the factions in every resource. Resources are required to win a war. If you're fighting with a mangled together group of mercs, mutant pigs, or childrens nightmares. You are by far the lowest on the factional GDP scale. Therefore fluff wise you don't get to put 11 heavies on the table and call it a "scouting" force. That's why Legion is screwed over in 2 out of 3 themes. Everblight [faction] from what I figure of the lore does not have the endless support of an entire country like Cygnar or Khador. They don't even have the bodies to mount a true army; they have a limited supply of blighted elves and ogrun. So we surely do not have the ability to just make dragons on an assembly line. Nephilim are actually born beasts, so it makes sense to have a theme based on blighted nyss and nephilim. Needing a true scouting force of fast, long range beasts and infantry makes sense. Dedicating the few specially gifted nyss to hold an area, needs to be protected by any means necessary. So you take the big [beast] guns. It makes sense thematically to do these things. Now there are stupid exceptions like Jaws of the Wolf. I hate it for everything it tries to stand for. It's just stupid and ssenseless... There is no basis for complaining about Jaws of the Wolf (and Heavy Metal, for that metal) and saying Oracles is OK. The only real difference between them is that Legion out of theme is much worse off than Cygnar or Khador out of theme, but both of them follow the same kind of 'logic' of 1. unrestricted beast/jack options 2. unrestricted beast/jack support and 3. free points for beast/jacks. Legion needs more a buff overall than Cygnar or Khador, but the essential elements of the themes are very similar (though jaws' no AD if very irritating.) My complaint is thematics. A speed 4 jack is not a "scout". 10 of them doesn't change that either. edit: Also this is indeed a REAL issue that should be included in the talks of balance - "The only real difference between them is that Legion out of theme is much worse off than Cygnar or Khador out of theme" If something is terrible without a theme, but okay in theme. That's fine. If something is good out of theme and then becomes absolutely great in theme. That's debatable. Just because the quality of power increase is the same, does not me the end product is the same. Purely hypothetical example. Say they decrease the points of all Light Warjacks by 5 for a theme and every faction Warmachine *and* Hordes got exactly that theme. Would that be balanced? No because it wouldn't work for any Hordes faction. Nor would it benefit Khador. Just because everyone gets the same exact benefit does not mean they all get the same "power" out of it.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Jun 16, 2017 15:59:26 GMT
There is no basis for complaining about Jaws of the Wolf (and Heavy Metal, for that metal) and saying Oracles is OK. The only real difference between them is that Legion out of theme is much worse off than Cygnar or Khador out of theme, but both of them follow the same kind of 'logic' of 1. unrestricted beast/jack options 2. unrestricted beast/jack support and 3. free points for beast/jacks. Legion needs more a buff overall than Cygnar or Khador, but the essential elements of the themes are very similar (though jaws' no AD if very irritating.) My complaint is thematics. A speed 4 jack is not a "scout". 10 of them doesn't change that either. And somehow a bunch of flying beasts fit the 'blighted magic theme' aesthetic?
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Post by Swampmist on Jun 16, 2017 16:02:48 GMT
My complaint is thematics. A speed 4 jack is not a "scout". 10 of them doesn't change that either. And somehow a bunch of flying beasts fit the 'blighted magic theme' aesthetic? Actually, the flying beasts arguably make more sense than the carnivean chassis does, since they have animi that effect the world rather than just buffing themselves.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Jun 16, 2017 16:03:01 GMT
My complaint is thematics. A speed 4 jack is not a "scout". 10 of them doesn't change that either. And somehow a bunch of flying beasts fit the 'blighted magic theme' aesthetic? Picking flying models is a *choice* for a single caster. I can take ANY beast with that. It's supposed to be an occupying force with the most magically talented nyss, something that is valuable and in short supply. So yes you defend something valuable like magical territory and magical elves with a lot of dragons.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Jun 16, 2017 16:05:39 GMT
And somehow a bunch of flying beasts fit the 'blighted magic theme' aesthetic? Picking flying models is a *choice* for a single caster. I can take ANY beast with that. It's supposed to be an occupying force with the most magically talented nyss, something that is valuable and in short supply. So yes you defend something valuable like magical territory and magical elves with a lot of dragons. 'magical territory?' If the theme is supposed to focus on magically talented Nyss, then the free points should be for taking units/solos with magic ability. As to Fyanna2 being a 'choice...' yeah, so is Harkevich in Jaws with 10 Marauders. Nothing stopping you from taking a bunch of Kossites and manhunters. It's still not 'thematic,' though...and neither is the most common example of oracles.
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