|
|
Post by skathrex on Jun 12, 2017 14:14:03 GMT
Hey,
by now most of us should have played a fair amount of SR17 games and gathered a some experience.
I came into a discussion with a friend a few days ago about what lists to bring to a team event.
His oppionion was that Jackspam lists aren't viable anymore because they don't have enough contesting peaces and can't score well on some scenarios.
I am not entirely sure he is right or wong so I am asking you.
Do you think Jackspam is viable in SR17, because its so good in Attrition?
Or do you think mixed armys are better in SR17?
|
|
|
|
Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 12, 2017 14:24:56 GMT
Does a high ranking Khadoran dissenter get quietly shot in the woods in the back of the head?
Anyway 100% spam lists never did well in the first place (At least from Khador. Filthy menoth may be different). About 75% Jacks can still work well.
|
|
|
|
Post by Kriegsspiele on Jun 12, 2017 14:35:02 GMT
Harkevich jack skews (OoT, WGK) worked pretty awesomely for me so far.
In my opinion SR17 is about contesting in the first place - scoring comes only 2nd.
|
|
|
|
Post by Netherby on Jun 12, 2017 14:44:49 GMT
Honestly, who cares about scoring in 2017? You are almost never going to be able to win on scenario and playing out 7 whole rounds on standard death clock timing is equally unlikely.
Your caster can score and jacks can contest just fine. If your opponent manages to get ahead by 6 points then you probably had nothing left any way.
A spam list is completely legit in a team event. Pure spam has trouble in standard, because it will get countered, but totally fine for a team event.
|
|
|
|
Post by borderprince on Jun 12, 2017 14:45:04 GMT
I think a jack-only list would struggle, but that's not the only way to think of jack spam. Units like Eliminators are cheap and good at getting into/contesting zones.
But generally, I'd agree with Rowdy Dragon as to about 75%. Our good jacks are (mostly) cheap, and we have some good cheap units too. Mixing them together works well.
|
|
|
|
Post by smoothcriminal on Jun 12, 2017 16:54:29 GMT
It's viable. We talk jackspam, we mean Jaws/Wg theme, and those have either stealth solos or bunch of bodies to hang back and score. It does alter the way you play mission though, charging something with Manhunters as soon as you can and losing your only mean to score is generally a bad move.
Now you have to keep in mind that scoring is not the only problem. The 12" control bubble of our casters does not allow to spread out far enough on some missions. Having independently functioning models (mentioned stealth solos), modules (a unit or a Malakov\Seer+jack) or long range shooting can be quite important for overcoming short control ranges.
Tactics changed in favor of longer game. Run+feat+jam is essentially a dead tactic. But jacks in general play good long game due to repairs.
People talk a lot about mission not mattering but it does. The person ahead on points can afford to make fast turns or just outright skip them if he's in scoring position. By turn 6 everyone loses so many models that it becomes impossible to score/contest some things and person who's leading in points is very favored to win from there.
Also jackspam became worse due to theme releases. For example Cygnar got Heavy metal for a while now and polished the lists and Legion got Oracles and Fyanna, which made facing jackspam not an uphill struggle for them anymore. More theme infantry wm spam lists around.
On the plus side jackspam is fast to play. Just playing 7 meaningfull turns without going over time can win you an otherwise lost game. Enter Karchev's countercharge that eats opponent's clock like crazy.
tl;dr it's viable, but you should practice to know how 2017 plays out, because it's very different.
|
|
|
|
Post by Armchair Warrior on Jun 13, 2017 1:58:39 GMT
My jackspam list is Karchev, 8 jack, mechs, 2 Forge Seers and a widomakers boat w WMM. I don't feel at all disadvantaged but I haven't played all the scenarios yet. The spam comes with enough units and solos to score just fine. I've contemplated dropping a Marauder for double elims, but at this point it's not sr2017 but rather the meta which is making me think about this.
|
|
|
|
Post by skathrex on Jun 13, 2017 6:48:47 GMT
It's viable. We talk jackspam, we mean Jaws/Wg theme, and those have either stealth solos or bunch of bodies to hang back and score. It does alter the way you play mission though, charging something with Manhunters as soon as you can and losing your only mean to score is generally a bad move. Now you have to keep in mind that scoring is not the only problem. The 12" control bubble of our casters does not allow to spread out far enough on some missions. Having independently functioning models (mentioned stealth solos), modules (a unit or a Malakov\Seer+jack) or long range shooting can be quite important for overcoming short control ranges. Tactics changed in favor of longer game. Run+feat+jam is essentially a dead tactic. But jacks in general play good long game due to repairs. People talk a lot about mission not mattering but it does. The person ahead on points can afford to make fast turns or just outright skip them if he's in scoring position. By turn 6 everyone loses so many models that it becomes impossible to score/contest some things and person who's leading in points is very favored to win from there. Also jackspam became worse due to theme releases. For example Cygnar got Heavy metal for a while now and polished the lists and Legion got Oracles and Fyanna, which made facing jackspam not an uphill struggle for them anymore. More theme infantry wm spam lists around. On the plus side jackspam is fast to play. Just playing 7 meaningfull turns without going over time can win you an otherwise lost game. Enter Karchev's countercharge that eats opponent's clock like crazy. tl;dr it's viable, but you should practice to know how 2017 plays out, because it's very different. Thx for that elaborate Answer. Its basically what I was thinking too. Yes scoring is not hte best option for Jackspams but we are good enought to stop our opponent form scoring thx to free solos and stuff like eliminators. But its good to see it backed up by others. Will let me stick to my Strakov1 List My jackspam list is Karchev, 8 jack, mechs, 2 Forge Seers and a widomakers boat w WMM. I don't feel at all disadvantaged but I haven't played all the scenarios yet. The spam comes with enough units and solos to score just fine. I've contemplated dropping a Marauder for double elims, but at this point it's not sr2017 but rather the meta which is making me think about this. OH yes do it! I contemplated 7 or 8 Jacks in Strakov1 and never was a huge fan of Eliminators, but seeing them in action with Jacks was really nice. The reasoning why they are great is similar to the Vlad2 list from Chris Davies. You have so much high Arm that some high Deff models can really screw with your opponent. |
|
|
|
Post by smoothcriminal on Jun 15, 2017 11:44:21 GMT
So apparently last insider says solos now score only flags. Poor manhunters, we barely knew ye.
The point about jackspam being viable still stands, but I think it's obligatory now to remove 1 jack and put in either 2x elims, widowmakers+free marksman or kayazi+free UA.
Another interesting tech may be taking mow mechanic officer. He was almost making it before and now long cmd and increased survivability of the mech unit matter more.
|
|
|
|
Post by skathrex on Jun 15, 2017 11:48:44 GMT
I had the same idea about your first points. Eliminators are pretty much set, and widowmaker + marksman will find their way in many lists too. I don't see the officer really, but mechanics often. Most Jackspams will take the 2 seers as free + Widowmaker (who camps a flag). Instead of the Officer sadly the 2nd Unit of mechanics becomes more interesting now
|
|
|
|
Post by smoothcriminal on Jun 15, 2017 13:05:14 GMT
Mechanic officer can be free and with kayazi UA they're the only two free options that help score circle zones.
By the way do we know if he can repair himself? That would be cool.
Though we may see more flags. PP did say they changed some mission layout.
|
|
|
|
Post by skathrex on Jun 15, 2017 13:15:40 GMT
I don't think hes good enough to be taken before Seers or Marksman (in a Jack heavy build), and after you have taken those 3, there are no free points left (except if you go the total 100 and than I can see taking him).
If you spent points you rather take a second unit mechs, if not you rather take the other stuff.
|
|
|
|
Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 15, 2017 13:21:32 GMT
Hes neat to stop blast damage. So I like him.
|
|
|
|
Post by Blargaliscious on Jun 15, 2017 13:58:38 GMT
Question: Would it be worthwhile to tone down the jack spam a smidge and throw in a squad of infantry to grab a circle zone? Like an old-fashioned Winter Guard Death Star? The thing I like about the WGDS was that it is a really multi-capable multi-weapon unit: CRA, spray attacks, AOE. It may not have the range of the WGRC with Rocketeers, but it has a little more mass and a lot more flexibility.
If that's not the answer, maybe changing the loadout of warjacks would be? Throwing a Demolisher and/or Devastator or 2 into the circle zones would certainly throw a wrench into any plans your opponent might have.
|
|
