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Post by gobber on Jun 9, 2017 3:26:33 GMT
Apparently def13 trenchers getting dodge and ignoring backstrikes and stealth (for the army) for 2pts is quite reasonable. Cygnar definitely doesn't have any marysues that can def skew on top of that...
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jun 9, 2017 3:33:38 GMT
Apparently def13 trenchers getting dodge and ignoring backstrikes and stealth (for the army) for 2pts is quite reasonable. Cygnar definitely doesn't have any marysues that can def skew on top of that... Nope. No, sir. No casters that grant +2 def. Certainly no casters with blur. That'd be crazy.
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zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
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Post by zich on Jun 9, 2017 6:32:46 GMT
And those casters wouldn't happen to synergize well with trenchers, would they? Honestly, it's a bit weird that this is another theme force that allows any [faction] casters instead of [theme] casters. It goes kind of against that whole subfaction concept.
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jun 9, 2017 10:46:06 GMT
And those casters wouldn't happen to synergize well with trenchers, would they? Honestly, it's a bit weird that this is another theme force that allows any [faction] casters instead of [theme] casters. It goes kind of against that whole subfaction concept. I mean, they could exclude casters that aren't thematically involved with the Gravediggers often. It wouldn't balance anything. Haley2 and Haley3 would still be in. You'd exclude Stryker2, Stryker3, Maddox, Nemos, and maybe Blaize. You'd be reducing Cygnar players options, and not balancing the game. .
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zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
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Post by zich on Jun 9, 2017 12:23:55 GMT
I see what you mean. Purely on principle though, if they want themes to be thematic, allowing every caster in every theme kind of goes against that goal.
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Post by tesoe on Jun 9, 2017 15:09:33 GMT
I think making them unshootable is the point. They seem to be trying to recreate WWI trench warfare. The guys in the trenches are unhittable until you close to melee range. And to get there you have to cross the death zone of gunfire that is no man's land.
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Post by Azuresun on Jun 9, 2017 15:12:23 GMT
And those casters wouldn't happen to synergize well with trenchers, would they? Honestly, it's a bit weird that this is another theme force that allows any [faction] casters instead of [theme] casters. It goes kind of against that whole subfaction concept. Are you saying it makes little sense to allow Caine (iconic Gun Mage), Maddox (iconic Storm Knight) or Nemo (iconic lightning guy) to lead the Trencher theme that's all about Trencher models? I thought we established that restricting warcasters from leading themes they have no thematic connection with only applies to Mercenaries and Minions.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 9, 2017 15:20:53 GMT
I thought we established that restricting warcasters from leading themes they have no thematic connection with only applies to Mercenaries and Minions. Problem is that maybe Cygnar has a bunch of "Easily Iconic" casters, but what about the non-easily iconic ones? I mean I think "haley and Trenchers" is pretty far fetched myself, but thats because shes a miserable mary sue that needs to be launched into space for the devourer wurm to eat, after which it reveals that she was his primary target all along and then leaves to relax in a bath house in Uzbekistan. Does that mean we split the Minions one even more? Only Bog Trogs with the bog trogger? Only Farrow Commandoes with the Commando? Careful what you wish for, you might just get it!
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jun 9, 2017 16:03:50 GMT
I thought we established that restricting warcasters from leading themes they have no thematic connection with only applies to Mercenaries and Minions. Problem is that maybe Cygnar has a bunch of "Easily Iconic" casters, but what about the non-easily iconic ones? I mean I think "haley and Trenchers" is pretty far fetched myself, but thats because shes a miserable mary sue that needs to be launched into space for the devourer wurm to eat, after which it reveals that she was his primary target all along and then leaves to relax in a bath house in Uzbekistan. Does that mean we split the Minions one even more? Only Bog Trogs with the bog trogger? Only Farrow Commandoes with the Commando? Careful what you wish for, you might just get it! Haley actually heads Trencher units alot in the fluff. Y'know, if that matters to anyone. And as for Haley being a Mary Sue. Every single warcaster/warlock is a Mary Sue. It's built into their characters. Why? Because Iron Kingdoms lore just isn't deep enough for complex characters. They all have plot armor. They all have shallow character flaws that are pretty easily circumvented and overcome. Character arcs are short and predictable. The only time any of them are severely outmatched is when they find an opponent with even greater plot armor than their own (like Vinter and Voyle). And then they get defeated because someone has a silver bullet. Because IK lore just isn't that complex
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Post by W0lfBane on Jun 9, 2017 16:09:16 GMT
Problem is that maybe Cygnar has a bunch of "Easily Iconic" casters, but what about the non-easily iconic ones? I mean I think "haley and Trenchers" is pretty far fetched myself, but thats because shes a miserable mary sue that needs to be launched into space for the devourer wurm to eat, after which it reveals that she was his primary target all along and then leaves to relax in a bath house in Uzbekistan. Does that mean we split the Minions one even more? Only Bog Trogs with the bog trogger? Only Farrow Commandoes with the Commando? Careful what you wish for, you might just get it! Haley actually heads Trencher units alot in the fluff. Y'know, if that matters to anyone. And as for Haley being a Mary Sue. Every single warcaster/warlock is a Mary Sue. It's built into their characters. Why? Because Iron Kingdoms lore just isn't deep enough for complex characters. They all have plot armor. They all have shallow character flaws that are pretty easily circumvented and overcome. Character arcs are short and predictable. The only time any of them are severely outmatched is when they find an opponent with even greater plot armor than their own (like Vinter and Voyle). And then they get defeated because someone has a silver bullet. Because IK lore just isn't that complex SEVY DIDN'T HAVE PLOT ARMOUR YOU HEARTLESS MONSTER Check your mary sue privilege
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 9, 2017 17:27:33 GMT
Fine Im not gonna fight on the term of Mary sue. But I think shes a boring, dull and poorly told character. She really doesn't experience any form of character growth sans the universe dumping more and more power on her. Shes the only character whos character growth goes: Haley: "Oh crap, maybe Il loose my power? How will this affect me?" Universe: "JK Your actually EVEN MORE naturally gifted, heres more power!" Haley: "Thanks!" She represents Cygnar at its most plotwise WORST. The sort of writing an anime protagonist goes through.
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jun 9, 2017 17:40:49 GMT
Fine Im not gonna fight on the term of Mary sue. But I think shes a boring, dull and poorly told character. She really doesn't experience any form of character growth sans the universe dumping more and more power on her. Shes the only character whos character growth goes: Haley: "Oh crap, maybe Il loose my power? How will this affect me?" Universe: "JK Your actually EVEN MORE naturally gifted, heres more power!" Haley: "Thanks!" She represents Cygnar at its most plotwise WORST. The sort of writing an anime protagonist goes through. You're right. I'm obviously forgetting about all of the Khadoran casters who become weaker over time. Like...um...huh...
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 9, 2017 17:48:59 GMT
You're right. I'm obviously forgetting about all of the Khadoran casters who become weaker over time. Like...um...huh... Not Weaker: CHANGED. Or B: Overcoming. Haley does neither. The universe just winks at her and hands her more power to overcome an issue with no effort on her part. Most epic casters in Khador (Heck even in Cygnar) reflect a personal psychological change for better or for worse. Wheras Haley just is lucky and keeps acumulating power from no effort or sacrifice on her part. Irusk gets a reprimand about being so callous. Changes himself to be more devoted towards his people. Strahkov fails a utterly critical mission and loses an eye. Becomes more grim and Miserable. The Butcher becomes more psychotic...And then find himself in animals? (Honestly I HATED that plot development. Twas a copout). Haley has to cope with losing her powers.....Nah. And how about MORE powers instead! Because Super speshul Twinsies Powers.
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jun 9, 2017 18:08:15 GMT
You're right. I'm obviously forgetting about all of the Khadoran casters who become weaker over time. Like...um...huh... Not Weaker: CHANGED. Or B: Overcoming. Haley does neither. The universe just winks at her and hands her more power to overcome an issue with no effort on her part. Most epic casters in Khador (Heck even in Cygnar) reflect a personal psychological change for better or for worse. Wheras Haley just is lucky and keeps acumulating power from no effort or sacrifice on her part. Irusk gets a reprimand about being so callous. Changes himself to be more devoted towards his people. Strahkov fails a utterly critical mission and loses an eye. Becomes more grim and Miserable. The Butcher becomes more psychotic...And then find himself in animals? (Honestly I HATED that plot development. Twas a copout). Haley has to cope with losing her powers.....Nah. And how about MORE powers instead! Because Super speshul Twinsies Powers. She was losing her magic powers AND her physical autonomy. There was real conflict for her. She had lost her identity as Warcaster, the one responsable for her entire nation's safety. She had character development with Nemo. They talked about Convergence and their immortal bodies. Haley was legitimately tempted to get one, to the point where she relied on someone else for help, a mechanic, to get her to a meet up with Directrix. She was powerless through this whole time, and couldn't protect the man she had trusted to help her when the Convergence attacked. Haley spoke more with Nemo (I love that old guy) and she slowly began to realize that if her soul were placed in a clockwork vessel, then she'd be the same as her sister, a soul clinging to a lesser sort of life. Haley had to gp through all of these revelations, and then make a choice. Should she die, or relinquish that which makes her human. It was only when she decided that lingering in a clockwork vessel is not preferable to death that she finds the inner focus to weave the temporal threads of her whole being together. She sacrifices the idea of immortality and perfection, invulnerablity from the poison that afflicted her, and in turn she brings out her own ultimate strength by being herself, past, present, and future in totality. Haley's story is poetic af. By giving up artificial means to escape suffering, she instead bears the pain totally in order to transcend it. The false potential of being a machine is cast aside for the real power of humanity, wilpower, and desire. She destroys that which is not her own (mechanical arm), and makes herself whole again. Haley is my second favorite character in IK, right after Stryker. Frankly, I'm tired of her being called Mary Sue. Her and Denny's story is actually one of the more interesting stories in the lore.
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Post by tesoe on Jun 9, 2017 18:31:11 GMT
I just want to remind everyone that this is a thread about the Trencher CID. Arguing about how well wrote or not Haley is in the fiction would probably be better in a new thread.
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