Fire Step
Junior Strategist
Everyday I'm Wrastlin'
Posts: 334
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Post by Fire Step on May 11, 2017 15:15:34 GMT
Good day all
I have (what feels like) a very specific meta, out of which 3 players are on cryx, and have access to ghost fleet. When I look at that list, I see a specific answer in the below. I would appreciate starting a conversation not just around the below list but also general tactics into ghost fleet.
War Room Army
Khador - Sorscha1
Theme: No Theme Selected 75 / 75 Army
Kommander Sorscha - WJ: +29 - War Dog - PC: 3 - Conquest - PC: 37 (Battlegroup Points Used: 29)
Widowmaker Marksman - PC: 4 Fenris - PC: 9 Eiryss, Mage Hunter of Ios - PC: 7 Kell Bailoch - PC: 5 Orin Midwinter, Rogue Inquisitor - PC: 5
Widowmaker Scouts - Leader & 3 Grunts: 8 Doom Reaver Swordsmen - Leader & 5 Grunts: 13 Doom Reaver Swordsmen - Leader & 5 Grunts: 13
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Points to note: Doom Reavers, Fenris: the reason to include these over more conventional infantry. Magic weapons, to hit incorporeal. Reach, to get right into the middle of the enemy to clear them out with berserk. Natively high Def (13) coupled with fog of war creates a good chance of delivery versus shooting. Fenris is an enabler for the Doom Reavers, as well as being able to put a real dent into jacks and reach across the table at SPD 8 (total threat 13").
Orin, Kell, Eiryss: all three provide good infantry clearing, as well as magic weaponry for incorporeal. Orin especially is a must for the electro leap for getting the up on the recursion.
Sorscha1: She has a deadly personal threat. She can deliver the troops with Fog of War, and was the original reason for Sorschas Ocean's 18. There is also a very interesting interaction between her feat and incorporeal models. Under the rule for incorporeal;
"This model does not count as an intervening model." Sorscha's feat reads that it affects LOS models only. Since she sees through the incorporeal models, it gives better spread for her feat, which is normally restricted by models blocking LOS.
Anyway. That's been my thought process so far. Interested to hear thoughts?
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on May 11, 2017 15:21:40 GMT
If I were building to counter Ghost Fleet I personally would use Sorscha 2. If you use Shatterstorm to Remove from play the Leader of each unit, they cannot use death bound anymore, once they lose that you have taken away the main strength of the list.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on May 11, 2017 15:31:38 GMT
Ghost shot ignores concealment. Sucks but is true.
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Fire Step
Junior Strategist
Everyday I'm Wrastlin'
Posts: 334
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Post by Fire Step on May 11, 2017 15:42:14 GMT
If I were building to counter Ghost Fleet I personally would use Sorscha 2. If you use Shatterstorm to Remove from play the Leader of each unit, they cannot use death bound anymore, once they lose that you have taken away the main strength of the list. Unfortunately her feat isn't as functional into ghost fleet as damage over arm isn't the issue, it's hitting them (another point for Sorscha1). I am a little sceptical about bringing a caster for a single spell, especially with the zero arc nodes in khador. I built the above with the aim of clearing a unit in a turn, or making stationary those left over. Between Kell, Eiryss, Orin, and Widow makers +Marksman there's a lot of shots (some magical) going into the advancing cryx. I need to read up on how the unit activates when they are stationary, and then under go recursion. I would presume the first section of the unit that was stationary remains so, and the newly generated unit members are fine?
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Post by borderprince on May 11, 2017 15:55:24 GMT
Doom Reavers, Fenris: the reason to include these over more conventional infantry. Magic weapons, to hit incorporeal. Reach, to get right into the middle of the enemy to clear them out with berserk. Natively high Def (13) coupled with fog of war creates a good chance of delivery versus shooting. Fenris is an enabler for the Doom Reavers, as well as being able to put a real dent into jacks and reach across the table at SPD 8 (total threat 13"). And spellward against some of those nasty Cryx spells. Corrected that for you... I like it. But then I like Sorcha1 with Doomreavers and Conquest anyway. It might be worth trying a Ternion instead of Eiryss1 for one match. Eiryss is such a high value target that she might not last long. 3 decent magic sprays might be handy.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on May 11, 2017 15:57:39 GMT
If I were building to counter Ghost Fleet I personally would use Sorscha 2. If you use Shatterstorm to Remove from play the Leader of each unit, they cannot use death bound anymore, once they lose that you have taken away the main strength of the list. Unfortunately her feat isn't as functional into ghost fleet as damage over arm isn't the issue, it's hitting them (another point for Sorscha1). I am a little sceptical about bringing a caster for a single spell, especially with the zero arc nodes in khador. I built the above with the aim of clearing a unit in a turn, or making stationary those left over. Between Kell, Eiryss, Orin, and Widow makers +Marksman there's a lot of shots (some magical) going into the advancing cryx. I need to read up on how the unit activates when they are stationary, and then under go recursion. I would presume the first section of the unit that was stationary remains so, and the newly generated unit members are fine?
The problem with trying to remove whole units is that any decent Cryx player will have their leader model 7 " behind the front models, and then probably 2 grunts 7" behind him, so including the leader and the front ranks base size, the back most grunts are just shy of 16" behind their front rank (most likely behind terrain), too far for most things to get to.
Because shatterstorm is friendly faction upkeep you can easily cycle it between say Widowmakers and a unit of Rifleman with Rockets, they then only need to hit the leader who is 7" behind their back line.
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Growl
Junior Strategist
Posts: 496
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Post by Growl on May 11, 2017 16:46:09 GMT
I like the way you are going with your list! I have been running with pretty good success a similar list, though oddly enough I have not yet faced Ghost Fleet. I have Victor instead of Conquest as I like the longer range and ability to set a warcaster on fire early on or kill support models from far away I think pushes my opponent to having to close faster which suits my three units of Doomreavers just fine! I do not have the War Dog, but use Sylys for the extra help with upkeeping FOW and the extra range on spells and Arcane Secrets. I also do not have Kell or Orin or the Widowmakers or Marksman because I am not looking to shoot really. Why don't I just show you what I've been doing?;
Khador - Sorscha1
Theme: No Theme Selected 75 / 75 Army
Kommander Sorscha - WJ: +29 - Sylys Wyshnalyrr, The Seeker - PC: 4 - Victor - PC: 38 (Battlegroup Points Used: 29)
Saxon Orrik - PC: 4 Eiryss1 - PC: 7
Fenris - PC: 9 Winter Guard Artillery Kaptain - PC: 3 Doom Reaver Swordsmen - Leader & 5 Grunts: 13 Doom Reaver Swordsmen - Leader & 5 Grunts: 13 Doom Reaver Swordsmen - Leader & 5 Grunts: 13
It may be overkill, but I like Saxon in there for the extra Pathfinder, although the Reavers get it on the charge with Fenris, sometimes I want them to run to be able to engage things etc. The Artillery guy is great to help with scatters, I know he's not released yet, but he is coming out very soon. If I had to play without him, I would probably just put in some min mechanics. I just think with all the Doomreavers in there I just don't need Orin. To give myself a shameless plug, but also keeping in line with your post, I put up battle reports with versions of my list, "News From The Front" in the Khador forums. I have some new battles to post that I haven't had a chance to get to yet.
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Post by sand20go on May 11, 2017 16:56:37 GMT
Some quick thoughts.......
A) Victor over Conquest (and likely inclusion of Artillerist)
When Cryx runs Ghost Fleet with Denny you REALLY want the ability to destealth her. You MASSIVELY take away a lot of her attrition game by having S1's feat live as a deterrent to force her to stay back. Absent destealth you run the risk of her laughing at you, using her feat and debuffs to keep anything threatening back >5 inches.
B) You have to play SMART with the doomreavers. I think it vital that you......
i) Minimize the number of aimed shots by rifle dudes and pistol wraiths pre-feat turn. Fog will help against the PWs (needing 8s). The Rifles may have to CRAs to hit Def 13. You need to get as many into the mix as possible alive
ii) Remember the recursion and stationary interactions. FROZEN leaders can NOT issue orders. However, recursion models CAN take a movement and action even if the rest of the unit is frozen.
iii) The above is one of the reasons, like others, that I like S2 over S1. Yes. You have to HIT def 13 Rev. Crew members. But if you can Shatterstorm them out you are going to make your life SO much easier in this game. Otherwise I think you get overwhelemed a lot of the time.
C) While a high(er) learning curve what about Z1 or OW for this match up? Ghost shot DOES NOT ignore stealth (OW) and you have some great tech to deal with the pirates to force them out. No souls for OW but CMD 7 and 2-3 units of Pirates means you PROBABLY have some mulching that Scrappy can do. Z1 can aggressively feat - in most Crxy only the Kraken can fire from outside threat. You can use the clouds to deny LOS to all but the rifledudes. You can lob a hex blast or 2 using the artifacts where you need to put them. You DO have to get work done on feat turn because after that Z1 feels pretty squishy into the recursive "fun" of the rifle dudes.
<Edit>
Ultimately I think the right answer right now is S2 _IN WINTER GUARD THEME_. Shatter storm helps. Desperate pace helps. Your ability to Sac pawn ghost shots into WG dudes and dudettes is fairly massive for the list. Do NOT discount the personal threat range she has which will essentially end the game right then and there (6 for Cyclone, 11 for BC charge and then 2 inch reach for 19 non-linear. Your Infantry can minifeat and spray out a ton of dudes. You don't have a GREAT answer to blackbane BUT you do have the magical blasts from shatterstorm so you probably force even more spread out units that will have a harder time concentrating fire. Try to knockdown bone chicken with the Field gun and then apply rockets.
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Post by auraco on May 11, 2017 16:58:11 GMT
Haven't tried doom reavers into ghost fleet, but it seems to me they will just get shot by the riflemen ghost pirate. Has anyone tried it to confirm or prove me wrong? Melee just doesn't seem like the right answer to ghost fleet to me. I think the new gun carriage might be an interesting option to deal with ghost fleet, it can clear a LOT of infantry with the impact hits and guns, possibly enough to clear units. Could also work kinda well with Sorscha2, shatterstorm on it can make for good impact hit that remove from play and boundless charge helps with the threat range. Also the revenant crew are not pathfinder and forcing Denny1 to cast ghost walk means less debuff on other stuff. Problem with runing that in theme would be the ghost pirate, I got nothing to help for that...
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Post by smoothcriminal on May 11, 2017 17:31:01 GMT
I would drop Eiryss and Wardog to include the A&H and Gobber tinker. Eiryss is not point-effective at shooting anything, she's only good for killing caster. And you won't be killing Denny since you have no anti-stealth tech.
I don't know about doomie concept. It will probably fail miserably against Denny feat+ton of shooting, but you never know, those pirates are short ranged and low rat and have to deal with colossal shooting and S1 feat.
My personal piece of tech against gunlines is Vlad 1. Good at keeping your stuff alive with Windwall, good at closing distance with feat. He actually can deliver the doomies in this list unharmed. Vlad3 would probably even be better for doomies and he even has sick feat combo with Fenris.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on May 11, 2017 17:43:54 GMT
I would drop Eiryss and Wardog to include the A&H and Gobber tinker. Eiryss is not point-effective at shooting anything, she's only good for killing caster. And you won't be killing Denny since you have no anti-stealth tech. I don't know about doomie concept. It will probably fail miserably against Denny feat+ton of shooting, but you never know, those pirates are short ranged and low rat and have to deal with colossal shooting and S1 feat. My personal piece of tech against gunlines is Vlad 1. Good at keeping your stuff alive with Windwall, good at closing distance with feat. He actually can deliver the doomies in this list unharmed. Vlad3 would probably even be better for doomies and he even has sick feat combo with Fenris. Not sure I would rely on windwall to deliver doomies, the Hellslinger Phantom and pistol wraiths have magical guns, so does the Revenant Cannon, which will turn you clustered doomies into more pirates
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Fire Step
Junior Strategist
Everyday I'm Wrastlin'
Posts: 334
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Post by Fire Step on May 11, 2017 18:22:38 GMT
Haven't tried doom reavers into ghost fleet, but it seems to me they will just get shot by the riflemen ghost pirate. Has anyone tried it to confirm or prove me wrong? Melee just doesn't seem like the right answer to ghost fleet to me. I think the new Pain Train might be an interesting option to deal with ghost fleet, it can clear a LOT of infantry with the impact hits and guns, possibly enough to clear units. Could also work kinda well with Sorscha2, shatterstorm on it can make for good impact hit that remove from play and boundless charge helps with the threat range. Also the revenant crew are not pathfinder and forcing Denny1 to cast ghost walk means less debuff on other stuff. Problem with runing that in theme would be the ghost pirate, I got nothing to help for that... Pirates are rat4 thankfully. They need 9s to hit def 13. They can cra at range 14" however. unfortunately for the gun carriage, we'll be on the old rules. that doesnt stop a mad flanking gun carriage, but still. in other thoughts. am i mad to look at Butcher2 and those waves of infantry littering the table... ?
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Post by sand20go on May 11, 2017 18:53:44 GMT
Haven't tried doom reavers into ghost fleet, but it seems to me they will just get shot by the riflemen ghost pirate. Has anyone tried it to confirm or prove me wrong? Melee just doesn't seem like the right answer to ghost fleet to me. I think the new Pain Train might be an interesting option to deal with ghost fleet, it can clear a LOT of infantry with the impact hits and guns, possibly enough to clear units. Could also work kinda well with Sorscha2, shatterstorm on it can make for good impact hit that remove from play and boundless charge helps with the threat range. Also the revenant crew are not pathfinder and forcing Denny1 to cast ghost walk means less debuff on other stuff. Problem with runing that in theme would be the ghost pirate, I got nothing to help for that... Pirates are rat4 thankfully. They need 9s to hit def 13. They can cra at range 14" however. unfortunately for the Pain Train, we'll be on the old rules. that doesnt stop a mad flanking Pain Train, but still. in other thoughts. am i mad to look at Butcher2 and those waves of infantry littering the table... ? No. Butcher 2 could absolutely work and you have a good chance (as any) of triggering conferred rage which can be a huge boon to getting in and wacking the crap out of stuff. But again, why not Z1 or OW? Both have solid anti-shooting tech. Both have ways of dealing with a ton of infantry. Both have some ways of dealing with "hidding" units that are trying to be coy so that he doesn't loose all of the pirates. Finally - and while a risky play - you could try B3. Silence of Death REMOVES models from play. So you could TRY to suck in a huge number of pirates and then flashing blade them out of the game. Bring him in WG theme and sac pawn all day - using minifeat spray or rifle shots to futher clear out.
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wendan
Junior Strategist
Posts: 785
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Post by wendan on May 11, 2017 19:02:49 GMT
I think Butcher 2, Old Witch, or Zerkova 1 or 2 are fantastic choices for this type of fight. I'm personally on a Butcher 2 kick, so I'll be running him for a while. But the OW and Z1 have been really good in Mk 3.
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Fire Step
Junior Strategist
Everyday I'm Wrastlin'
Posts: 334
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Post by Fire Step on May 11, 2017 20:15:57 GMT
Pirates are rat4 thankfully. They need 9s to hit def 13. They can cra at range 14" however. unfortunately for the Pain Train, we'll be on the old rules. that doesnt stop a mad flanking Pain Train, but still. in other thoughts. am i mad to look at Butcher2 and those waves of infantry littering the table... ? No. Butcher 2 could absolutely work and you have a good chance (as any) of triggering conferred rage which can be a huge boon to getting in and wacking the crap out of stuff. But again, why not Z1 or OW? Both have solid anti-shooting tech. Both have ways of dealing with a ton of infantry. Both have some ways of dealing with "hidding" units that are trying to be coy so that he doesn't loose all of the pirates. Finally - and while a risky play - you could try B3. Silence of Death REMOVES models from play. So you could TRY to suck in a huge number of pirates and then flashing blade them out of the game. Bring him in WG theme and sac pawn all day - using minifeat spray or rifle shots to futher clear out. Sorry mate I should have responded directly on this one. I don't dislike Zerkova1, I think she could likely do a fine job of clearing the infantry and is quite uniquely qualified (she can create arc nodes from enemies and boost on sprays). Unfortunately none of the cloud lists provide good defensive tech since ghost fleet ignores clouds :/ Z1 also doesn't provide a hit or damage buff. I do like your idea of Butcher3. I think he could tank enough to get into the ghosts. With feat and flashing blade he should be able to clear a unit minimum a turn.
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