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Post by GreatBigTree on May 6, 2017 2:30:17 GMT
So, I had an idea for a list, but have no idea if it would work. It revolves around units with movement effects, for the most part. Keep the enemy pushed back, keep shooting them. Try to keep them outside of charge range / run to engage abilities. Win the Shooting match with a multitude of defensive abilities vs shooting.
Forges of War 75 pts + Helynna 30 pts + 12 pts free Solos [Forges of War gives shield guard, which lets me spread shots around on my Jacks, putting "small" damage to several jacks, allowing replenish of Force Fields rather than lost Jacks, also lets me start with RoW for free, which is nice.
Magister Helynna [Rhythm of War gives 3" reposition to Warjacks, after all activations. Force Strike can Knock Down. Her attacks can push enemies 3". Decel can protect against retaliation shots.]
(Free) Sylys [Keeps RoW going for free, other abilities give a nice kick to Force Strike]
3x Gorgon [Getting "Hit" by a shot reduces SPD by 2, spread to 3 scariest targets. At Close range, enemies can't advance.]
1x Griffon [Fits the points. He's fast, and can tie up shooty units with long reach.]
2x Manticore [Suppressive Fire can screw up infantry movement.]
1x Phoenix [Arc Node is handy, Combustion is excellent crowd control, and Phoenix field works well to regenerate damage that gets spread around]
2x Arcanist Mechanic [Need to keep the Focus flowing and repairs don't hurt...]
(Free) 2x House Shyeel Magister [Push / Pull / Shooty Defence]
2x House Shyeel Battle Mages [Push / Pull / Shooty Defence / Critical Knock Down]
So the idea is to keep the enemy pushed back, while blasting away, and countering any return fire.
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Post by GreatBigTree on May 9, 2017 3:47:48 GMT
Hi Folks, I'd take any kind of feedback here, from "Brilliant," to, "I've never thought of that..." to "That's painfully stupid and you should feel bad for posting that". For about $120 I could add the necessary models to my collection. It feels like a legitimate strategy, but I've only played a handful of games, so I really don't know if it would even possibly work. I'd hate to throw my money away.  |
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dagowit
Junior Strategist
Posts: 171
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Post by dagowit on May 9, 2017 6:58:17 GMT
Tough one. I know that others have experimented with shooty Helynna and done well. I wonder if you want the dual Battle Mages or should downsize (then again, if you ever want to play Rahn in theme, you will want to own two units).
I also wonder if you really need three Gorgons. It is no doubt a good 'jack in the right list but my gut feeling would be that you may need some added ranged punch (or, alternatively, resilience).
With SR2017 coming up, it will be a bit more tricky to push enemies out of zones and win on CP, so relying on the Battle Mages might not be enough.
Can you test it with proxy models before you buy?
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Post by Mantanza on May 9, 2017 14:51:52 GMT
While a fair amount different then your list it has me excited so I thought I would share.
War Room Army
Retribution of Scyrah - Helynna Hemera bffs
Theme: No Theme Selected
75 / 75 Army
Magister Helynna - WJ: +30
- Sylys Wyshnalyrr, The Seeker - PC: 4
- Manticore - PC: 14 (Battlegroup Points Used: 14)
- Manticore - PC: 14 (Battlegroup Points Used: 14)
- Hemera - PC: 16 (Battlegroup Points Used: 2)
- Discordia - PC: 18
- Moros - PC: 11
Arcanist Mechanik - PC: 2
Arcanist Mechanik - PC: 2
Arcanist Mechanik - PC: 2
Dawnguard Sentinels - Leader & 9 Grunts: 18
- Dawnguard Sentinel Officer & Standard - Officer
Shorty list and Hemera really should have been Helynnas jack as they match so well. Moros is flex, I'm still trying to find a spot for him but not sure he fits here.
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Post by Demeritus on May 9, 2017 15:34:26 GMT
So in keeping with something similar to your initial list, i came up with this but I did change it around.
Hellyna
Sylys (free model)
Helios
2x Manticore
Chimera
Gorgon
3 Arcanist Mechanic (1 free)
2 House Shyeel Magister (1 free)
House Shyeel Battle Mages (with escort)
House Shyeel Arcanists
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Post by GreatBigTree on May 10, 2017 22:32:44 GMT
My thoughts on the many Gorgons were that -2 Speed instead of Movement really hurts units that can't reach by charge, but run in to engage. For example, if a model has Spd 5, then by reducing Spd to 3, the run range drops by 4", So keeps it easier to then push back 6" and essentially deny a model [Jack] the ability to effectively advance. If the shooting manages to cripple a Jack, you can charge a Gorgon in to prevent them from advancing at all, after being pushed back. Potentially, anyhow. The shooting power is respectable, and with Power Up you only need to add one Focus, if you want to boost attack and damage. In many cases, I've observed that Heavy Jacks tend to have a Def around 10, so a 5+ to hit unboosted followed by a S 12 Boosted Damage roll could realistically only use the Power Up focus... leaving more focus for other items.
With Helynna's RoW allowing the Jacks to make a 3" "end of turn" move, you could nearly infinitely delay the advance of specific units, allowing you to keep a dangerous melee unit away, forcing your opponent to meet your strength with their weakness.
My use of two Battle Mage units is in part to ensure I have enough push-back, as the casualties pile up, but also they can act as a screen [Jacks can reposition 3" at end of turn] to soak a charge, and then allow the Manticores / Phoenix / Griffon to charge in. They also have a push-back melee attack, if I recall [phone's dead] that could let me then back off if needed, or ensure the rest of the unit can then switch over to shooting, allowing the rest of the army to shoot as well.
The Jacks can delay the advance, but the Magisters and Battle Mages can actually push the opponent backwards and nullify any forward movement from turn to turn. They also contribute to shooting damage, so I think I need both elements to push the opponent back and keep them there, while I advance.
I'm not familiar with the Helios... but I'm not currently interested in buying a Colossal. I've left 40k as I was sick of the Giant models, and while I'm sure I'll pick one up someday it's not a "this year" plan.
My limited experience with the Chimera was poor. I've had much better use from Gorgons. And I'd really rather rely on the Phoenix to act as an Arc Node, as it plays much better into the overall defence against shooting retaliation. I'd be worried about being overwhelmed by several "Big Guys" by limiting the number of Gorgons. And the Chimera doesn't have a gun, reducing my primary / preferred method of offensive.
Thanks for the input, I am looking at things from more angles now. It's quite helpful. |
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dagowit
Junior Strategist
Posts: 171
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Post by dagowit on May 12, 2017 10:33:35 GMT
The problem with the Gorgon is that its gun only affect the model hit. That means that it is much less effective against full units than single models. That said, I agree that the boosted POW 12s will eventually wear down heavy targets. I also see you you might want several if you plan on running it in to root models in place.
Play what suits your list but just be aware that the Chimera is quicker (apparition can be surprisingly useful) and the Griffon is more resilient and better at stopping infantry (due to 2" melee range).
The Phoenix is indeed expensive but comes with, well, all the abilities you ever wanted (regeneration, arc node, anti-infantry, 2" melee range, and an open fist). I can see how the shield regeneration in particular would be ideal for a ranged list (and pairs particularly well with Helynna's feat). I know my opponents sometimes choose another target because they fear the Phoenix will simply regenerate whatever damage they get through Deceleration. This allows the arc node to get further up the board.
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Post by elladan52 on May 12, 2017 12:43:56 GMT
You really should give Helios a second thought. It's the perfect piece for what you are trying to do, and I think makes your list truly scary. It has a 12" range gun that pushes 3" in any direction. It also pushes away models that miss it's def 12 in combat and pushes away models that hit. With the gorgons shooting other models it could make it difficult for your opponent to brace whatever is attacking the colossal.
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Post by GreatBigTree on May 12, 2017 20:39:31 GMT
@ Dago: For myself, if I can prevent the Jacks from hitting home, I've not yet encountered infantry that would like being roasted by the Phoenix... Menoth excluded for the most part. I think the Manticores can delay the approach of infantry with their suppressive fire, and Helynna can drop the big ball o'doom to eliminate most large units. I think. I haven't been able to make much use of a Chimera in most of my games thus far, but had good results with the delaying action of the Gorgon. Like, 5 or so games with the Chimera and 2 games with the Gorgon, but I was consistently underwhelmed. I do have one Griffon in the list, and considered running 2/2 instead of 3/1... but I think the Gorgon plays better into the overall sub-theme of shooty / repositioning enemy and self. I appreciate the advice, as I haven't run into any "infantry heavy" lists yet, so will need to try playing against them a few times to see if an even split would work better. So far, having better control of a few big models would be better in the games I've played. Might just be my meta. @ Elladan: I'll look into Helios' rules, but I don't forsee myself spending that much on a single large model in the near future. I like the model, but don't love it. I'm still just starting, having exactly a 73+30 pt army... waiting on a Arcanist to finish off my first 75 pt army. From what I've played with thus far, "extra" movement seems like a fun and powerful mechanic, so that's what I was thinking of building towards for my next army build. By the time I get there, I might want to try Helios out... and I'll definitely take a look at the rules... but I don't plan to include him right away. I appreciate the advice, as you've given me a reason to look into the rules. |
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