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Post by oncomingstorm on Feb 11, 2018 1:46:25 GMT
While you're stating the argument in a tongue in cheek bit of fun pokery, you are dead on correct with the first point: an arms race of power creep would be terrible for the game. It really does feel like the same script unfolding with every CID, and it's getting dispiriting. I hope I can buck the trend when the pirate cycle comes around. Likewise for me with the Tharn CID. I'm finding it particularly...questionable...to see that some of the people who argued vociferously against other factions getting (OP) stuff suddenly shift gears and argue that the stuff their faction is getting is ' totally fine, guys'.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Feb 11, 2018 1:44:19 GMT
That's actually quite a nice idea, but at that point does the Striker then eclipse the Suppressor ? I dunno i'm starting to think the spray just needs to go. Keep the boosted dual attack 2d3 gun shots, with 2 melee attacks - that will let it evaporate high def low arm stuff, and it can still give covering fire vs weaponmaster incoming threats (which manowar hate). Jamming it with said high def stuff wont work either, which is good, nice module. To give it a stealth mitigation, give it True sight and delete the spray completely. This will keep the thing highly accurate against its favorite targets. Meanwhile don't give the spray to the Striker, but rather give it POW 9 or 10 on its gun. Yes it would be bonkers with the butcher (particularly to huge bases), but it would also make the Striker nice anti-armor (as it has limited methods of achieving additional die or boosts). This keeps intact the apparent design point of both, gives both a good feel for their main duty, and gets rid of the Suppressor doing the Striker's job almost better, and gets rid of abuse 17" threat sprays. I'm not entirely convinced that the Strike Tanker needs a change. I think it's definitely being oppressed by the suppression tanker at the moment, but that doesn't mean it's not okay itself. The best comparison I can think of for it is the Ret HRT - 4 points, Pow 8 AP, Rng 14, Rat 5 (but potentially boosted to hit) vs. 6 points, Pow 8 AP Range 12, Rat 6 (easy access to Vet leader for 7)...but on a much tankier chassis, and with siege weapon and grievous wounds. Assuming the HRT is fine, the Strike Tanker likely is as well.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Feb 10, 2018 23:03:15 GMT
6 is also not a "cheap" solo 2 is a cheap solo, 4 is an average solo, 6 is an expensive solo. There's a reason you don't really see trencher chain gun crews and its because random shot pow 10's don't do anything in the current meta. Also listing by base stat is a poor way to test. Those sentinels are going to have a +2-7 armor on any turn that matters. The stormblades are likely going to have arcane shield so they're arm 18, not 15. The spray might need a nerf but the base gun, boost included is good but nothing any 10 man CRAing unit cant put out and its in a theme that cant TAKE a 10 man craing unit. 6 points is expensive for a solo, but cheap for a model that is (as you identify) putting out a similar amount of firepower to a full 10 man CRA unit. Especially since the Tanker is arguably more difficult to remove from the board (and certainly more difficult to reduce the effectiveness of through killing half the unit, jamming the unit, etc.) Up the Tanker to 9 points (so the cost of a min CRA unit), take away the ability to take it for free, and I won't be complaining. The Sentinels will typically have +3 armor for one turn. This is Ret we are talking about, not a faction with ubiquitous armor buffs. If the stormblades have arcane shield, that's an expensive buff being used to make them survivable. It shouldn't be trivialized by a 6 point solo. Also, if we're talking about armor buffs for the infantry, we need to include damage buffs for the khador player. So factor in S+P. Or Butcher1 feat. Or any other damn thing you fancy.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Feb 10, 2018 22:59:48 GMT
oncomingstorm IMO anything under Arm 18 is light infantry. This thing will only remove about 1/2 it’s shots in arm 18-20 infantry. And that signle wounds. Unboosted Pow 12’s are not super impressive making them pow 10’s means it’s going to struggle into arm 16/17 Dawnguard Sentinels are most certainly not light infantry. Light infantry is anything with an Arm of 15 or lower, and usually has a higher speed, and higher defense, to compensate. This...thing...already trivializes high defense. Def 14 in concealment is still getting hit 60+ % of the time. It should not get to trivialize medium-high armor as well. Remember that on top of everything, it's a 6 point model that requires the investment of at least a fully loaded light to remove reliably. It'll sit on flags for days, it's impossible to jam, and it requires a disproportionate amount of investment to remove. It's not quite on the same power level, but at the moment this guy is basically a Khador Hellmouth...except for infantry instead of heavies.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Feb 10, 2018 22:51:34 GMT
IMO, PP needs to refocus his niche on removing light infantry, that have the potential to jam up MoWs, per his concept. Lower the Pow on his main gun to 10, and the Pow on his spray to 12. He can still accurately snipe out high def jamming infantry, (even in melee, with the spray) and keeps his high accuracy, but he's not threatening to removing medium infantry from the board in large clumps, nor is he threatening warcasters. Right now he is quite simply too good at removing everything, while also being a royal pain in the ass to remove himself (in a theme that is full of hard to remove models, no less). Pow 10 is honestly unreliable against infantry nowadays. Things either shieldwall to 18-20 or wall of steel etc etc. Even the pow 10 shooting is usually throwing a 2man cra at stuff to crack its armor. 12/12 could be doable but honestly i'm unconvinced that one tanker needs 2 * abilities while the other gets none. Yes. Your 6 point, tough to kill, high ROF solo should not, in fact, be capable of reliably killing the toughest to kill single-wound infantry in the game at a rate of 4/turn. At POW 10, he reliably kills anything with Arm 16 or less. That includes Dread Rots, Blighted Nyss Swordsmen, Ryssovass Defenders, Stormblades, and is coming damn close to removing non mini-feated wall-off-steel sentinels. That is a perfectly acceptable niche for a CHEAP (or free) high ROF solo. You don't get to virtually ignore the defense stat, and also have a high enough POW to reliably take out high armor infantry. Not on a six point solo, and especially not on a 6 points solo that is incredibly difficult to remove and nigh-impossible to jam. Volley fire or Pow 12. Pick one.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Feb 10, 2018 22:42:23 GMT
I guess the real issue is testing it out OUT of theme. MoW have enough issues that i kind of think they need that sort of boost. As is Demo corps got very little that addressed the reason they weren't getting played, shockies are essentially unchanged (and probably don't need to be) And bombardiers are probably about where they need to be too. I actually think he could take anerf and you would still have a strong piece that fixes theme issues. Spray 10 pow 16 scalpel of doom is just too much in his toolbox. I think we can agree there IMO, PP needs to refocus his niche on removing light infantry, that have the potential to jam up MoWs, per his concept. Lower the Pow on his main gun to 10, and the Pow on his spray to 12. He can still accurately snipe out high def jamming infantry, (even in melee, with the spray) and keeps his high accuracy, but he's not removing medium infantry from the board in large clumps, nor is he threatening warcasters. Right now he is quite simply too good at removing everything, while also being a royal pain in the ass to remove himself (in a theme that is full of hard to remove models, no less).
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Post by oncomingstorm on Feb 10, 2018 21:34:07 GMT
onijet01 Bulldoze plus 2 very decent Melee attacks means you can easily be out of Melee after charging a generic trooper. Gunfighter means it is limited in how it can spray, only gets either its ranged or Melee attacks, and can only target the model it charges/is engaged with. It’s actually fairly limiting. Have you tried it yourself yet? It’s super strong on the table. Yah i have played him and though it may be my meta he is really bad. (Granted you always need a screen but he is a 50mm base) he constantly gets shot off the table by range units who out threat him. Weather its cygnar trencher longgunners with snipe, khador winterguard rockets, retribution heavy riffle teams and ghost snippers, hell ive even had ferrrow razzorback crew take him off the table. Im not saying he is not a solid model but if you are in a meta of ranged combat he is not that great. Winterguard Rockets are doing an average of 1 damage per shot to him. A full unit of long gunners with UA does 7 damage to him, unless the double tap. Don't leave your 6 point solo in aim and shoot range of a full unit of long gunners if you want it to live, this advice goes for virtually any non-stealth solo in the game. Heavy Rifle teams do an average of 2 damage to him per shot. You need 4 ghost sniper shots to kill him. The Razorback Crew statistically will do 3 damage on a hit. None of these models (at a reasonably equivalent points value) are even remotely a threat to him at range. By contrast, the turn after any of the above shoot him, he is in range to retaliate, and will wipe most of the above models off the table trivially. The one exception is the long gunners, and even then, he's likely killing 4 of them, making their next turn's output incapable of putting him down. You're grossly misrepresenting how tanky he is. If he's being shot off the table repeatedly, it's because your opponent is investing a substantial amount of resources in killing him (which lets your army do it's thing unmolested) and they're likely doing so because he's a disproportionately threatening piece. He's worth easily 9 points as he stands. Even without the option to take him for free. Serious nerfs are needed.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Feb 10, 2018 1:02:24 GMT
And there's the "Nothing my faction is getting can be broken unless it's as good as the cherry-picked best stuff in the game." defence. We should have bingo cards for these threads. The best stuff in Khador should be as good as the best stuff in other factions. Definitely not. The best stuff in a number of factions should be nerfed until it's appropriate to the power curve of the rest of the game. Nemo3 is one such outlier. Power Creep is a thing, and it's bad. Take it from an ex-Warhammer player.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Feb 8, 2018 20:01:35 GMT
When her field Marshal is the feat of two other Warcasters something ain't right... ...but it's week 1 *shrug* I dont understand this. Her field marshal says that if one of her jacks (which are all speed 4) attacks a model which is engaged by a man o war unit (which also is speed 4, except for Drakhuns), the jacks get a rather substatial benefit. But it should be fairly easy for the opponent to keep this from happening very often? Drakhun runs to engage. Jack goes in. Gets flank. It's literally Vyros1's feat, and if it's balanced, it's only because MoWs and Khador jacks are both slow.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Feb 8, 2018 7:40:34 GMT
So how do we feel about the number of models/revisions in the Khador CID that is now live? To be fair, Khador's turnout is not unusual, and sits fairly in the middle of the range that previous CIDs have shown us. The only thing new about it is that it dispels the notion that PP was winding down CIDs in general and Legion was just the first case. I'm curious how the Protectorate CID will go, actually, because I abandoned that faction specifically because I didn't have any confidence that PP had a strong design direction for it. Also, quite a few of the Khador models in CID didn't get changes (yet) or have gotten nerfs. Doesn't seem disproportionate.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Feb 8, 2018 7:00:34 GMT
I'm just being obnoxious. <3 I'm so keen for DH CID, I've been playing it a bunch lately and I have so many ideas ready to go. Me too. I'm torn between being very hopeful that we'll see a substantial number of the buffs we need, and concerned that we'll get the Legion treatment, and have a substantial number of our needy living beasts left out in the cold.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Feb 8, 2018 4:03:38 GMT
Suppression Tanker is the only thing that strikes me as clearly egregious. He's an assassination piece, infantry clearer, and flagsitter par extraordinaire...for 6 points (or more likely, free). With Vlad2, he gets a ridiculous 20" threat, with potential boosts and HoF. That kills a LOT of casters...and you can have two of them. POSSIBLY Sorscha3 is too good. She has two really good passives, (like, feat level good, almost) but her spell list is decidedly meh, and her feat (while good) isn't awe-inspiring. We'll see. What? A caster that can stand on the front lines and realistically be DEF 14(16 to guns/spells)/ARM20 with countercharing jacks that have flank to go in on anything that comes close to her? She's a weird caster. Tons of personal contribution, two very strong passives, but also, a not particularly strong spell list, and a not...overly impressive feat. Cloudwall is neat, but it's no Nightfall. She's not a caster I'm comfortable judging OP without getting some games into her. By contrast, the Suppression Tanker is OP. End of story.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Feb 8, 2018 1:55:58 GMT
What I don't get is why they plugging UAs on useless units to make them less useless. I could understand it before CiD and updates because ot was the way to kinda balance bad units but now, why not just fix the unit instead of forcing it to be more expensive with a forced mandatory UA? That has literally been design from mk2 forward, so for years. Non UA WG were ass. Non UA Kayazy weren't much better The number of units that were playable without a UA has always been tiny. Point is that this made a lot more sense when the models in question weren't currently in Beta-testing. When the only option is 'crap unit for whole edition' or 'crap unit gets great UA to make them playable,' obviously the latter is preferable, but those aren't the only two options any more. Shouldn't the goal be more oriented towards units that are balanced both with and without their UA?
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Post by oncomingstorm on Feb 8, 2018 1:33:44 GMT
Suppression Tanker is the only thing that strikes me as clearly egregious. He's an assassination piece, infantry clearer, and flagsitter par extraordinaire...for 6 points (or more likely, free). With Vlad2, he gets a ridiculous 20" threat, with potential boosts and HoF. That kills a LOT of casters...and you can have two of them.
POSSIBLY Sorscha3 is too good. She has two really good passives, (like, feat level good, almost) but her spell list is decidedly meh, and her feat (while good) isn't awe-inspiring. We'll see.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Feb 7, 2018 19:16:44 GMT
I'm kinda angry at the whole blatant push of new stuff, disregard of old stuff and nerf of too popular stuff, but thankfully flag guy, S3 and UAs are enough to unshelve my 6 units of mows, so it kinda evened out. smoothcriminal - most light jacks aren't 6 points (or free). Also, what light jacks have a P+S 16, Rat 6, boosted to hit Spray 10? Also, Rager spam is about a million times more manageable than Marauder spam. I think Mad Dog spam needs to be tested, just to avoid any possible repetition of Mad Dogs of War 3.0, but I'm not overly frightened of these changes. I agree that from power point of view it doesn't seem outstanding. The price up on main damage dealer aka Juggy compensates for price down on Berserker chassis. The problem is with how it was done. People bought into Berserker kits only to have them nerfed, we went to Marauder kit for a year, now those are nerfed and Berserkers are back to spam jack of choice. I usually don't like this comparison, but this is exactly what GW does and why we all hate them. Juggernaut and Marauder are still very playable, IMO. Marauder may still be too good, I'll need to test it. This doesn't smell of an attempt to force people to buy into a new spam/leave an old spam. The nerfs are very moderate (seriously, 1 point...) and while the buffs are aggressive, we're also talking about a chassis that's been entirely unplayed for a year. It looks to me like an attempt to make the entire jack stable more broadly useable.
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