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Post by droopingpuppy on Oct 23, 2021 14:49:02 GMT
Well, I cease to play Haley1 after Temporal Barrier lost its main purpose, thus Haley1 also lose the advantage over the other casters. Although she is boring to play - she is effectively a Temporal Barrier bot and she would be competitive with Maddox if we have to pick the most boring caster to play - but nonetheless I love to play her for decades, and... for some years I have to stick with Stryker1 and Caine1 while starting to lose the motivation to play the game. Although my remaining casters are still playable and fun.
But, it seems that her Temporal Barrier returns, and I may play her again.
[Haley 1] Captain Victoria Haley [+27] - Avenger [15] - Firefly [7] - Hunter [10] - Squire [4] Arcane Tempest Rifleman [3] Arcane Tempest Rifleman [3] Gun Mage Captain Adept [4] Journeyman Warcaster [3] - Hunter [10] Rhupert Carvolo, Piper of Ord [3] Stormblade Infantry [9] - Stormblade Infantry Officer & Standard [5] - Stormblade Infantry Storm Gunner (1) [2] Trencher Long Gunners (max) [15] - Trencher Long Gunner Officer [4]
This is a 70 point list(Note that Conflict Chamber did not updated the new update yet and I have adjusted it manually). For now it is a 80 point list, but after some days you may add even 5 points more, despite it lacks a theme force benefit!
I have played against my Trollbloods opponent for years and my tactics against him is simple; just take down all the heavies while leave my one, and they can't hurt my Arcane Shielded heavy. And Haley1 is one of the best pick for the ranged alpha strike, while Temporal Barrier also gives the second turn to shoot reliably. Shoot everything I got at once on the feat turn then maybe I can take down three Dire Trolls at once, as long as I can bring them on the right place. I knew that the warbeast is cease to be a threat only after kill it, for the warlock can restore all three aspects, so if you failed to surely kill it then it will haunt yours next turn. And my Stormblade Infantry is renown for making ranged attacks far frequently than swordplay, despite of their RNG 6 gun.
I wonder that it works against other factions, though. Perhaps it may deal with some Khador jack lists, for I am mainly target Dire Troll's ARM 20 which is same as Juggernaut chassis, but not only Juggernaut and Berserker are what Khador can bring. It seems that it still struggle to deal with Man-o-War.
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Post by darkangeldentist on Oct 24, 2021 9:54:00 GMT
It’s nice to see a non-theme list for a change. If you find this works well into Trollbloods then it should have a change against Khador, although they are going to bring some very difficult to deal with models now thanks to the changes. Man-o-war are going to be nasty because of how much faster that can be in shield-wall but the change that upset me most from a Cygnar perspective are the clam jacks. They don’t need to ever open up now and since they can’t be pushed around are very difficult to deal with.
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Post by Soul Samurai on Oct 24, 2021 15:13:54 GMT
I was surprised about the change to the clamjacks. I guess ARM 23 isn't really considered that big a deal anymore? Well, you can still throw them right? Just bring some jacks with two open fists. There you go, now you have a use for that newly-discounted Cyclone! Or that Colossal you were probably bringing anyway.
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Post by darkangeldentist on Oct 24, 2021 15:37:53 GMT
Please don’t troll. I’m depressed enough about the state of Cygnar vs Khador that I am likely to just shake my opponents hand and ask to play high command instead. I don’t find the game fun for that match-up.
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Post by droopingpuppy on Oct 24, 2021 17:14:56 GMT
Well, I don't think that it would be a converversial issue. Clamjacks are meant to be the anti-gunline stuffs that is weak while in melee, so it can't be helped that it is durable against gunline. Even the most malignly powerful model in the game has its own predator.
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Post by Soul Samurai on Oct 24, 2021 19:08:42 GMT
Please don’t troll. I’m depressed enough about the state of Cygnar vs Khador that I am likely to just shake my opponents hand and ask to play high command instead. I don’t find the game fun for that match-up.
I didn't mean to troll. To address my individual points:
1. ARM 23 isn't considered a big deal anymore: I'm not an active player due to there basically not being anyone else in the entire country who wants to play Warmachine, but from what I hear online it sounds like there's more armour-cracking running around these days. But I phrased it as a question because I don't really know.
2. You can still throw them: They are certainly more capable of putting out damage now, but their main job is still just to sit there and be hard to move. But the way I remember it, while they cannot be pushed, they can be thrown? Am I wrong? I could be, I'm finding it harder and harder to remember the details and rule interactions of this game. You know, from never getting the chance to play it. But it wasn't intended as trolling to say that you can throw them.
3. The Cyclone has two open fists and just got a point discount: I don't know if the model is good or bad, but I like how it looks and it does, indeed, have two open fists, making it capable of throwing a Clamjack. So I threw the idea out there. Yeah, I have a feeling that nobody on the Cygnar forums would actually consider it - one of the reasons I gave up coming here - but it's something I at least would be willing to try.
4. You were probably bringing a Colossal: I dunno, I thought they were considered OK? And they can certainly throw a Clamjack.
Anyway, my impression is that Khador isn't in a bad state, but we're not exactly a powerhouse either. But who knows right now? I imagine it will take a little while for the new meta to emerge now that there's been so many changes. Maybe Cygnar will turn out to be in a good place after all. Or if not, maybe it will get there before too long - this new update shows that PP is willing to put the effort in and fix old models, so I'd say that's a good sign.
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Post by droopingpuppy on Oct 24, 2021 19:55:38 GMT
Please don’t troll. I’m depressed enough about the state of Cygnar vs Khador that I am likely to just shake my opponents hand and ask to play high command instead. I don’t find the game fun for that match-up. I didn't mean to troll. To address my individual points: 1. ARM 23 isn't considered a big deal anymore: I'm not an active player due to there basically not being anyone else in the entire country who wants to play Warmachine, but from what I hear online it sounds like there's more armour-cracking running around these days. But I phrased it as a question because I don't really know.
Well, ARM 23 IS a big deal. I even have seen my ARM 22+5 Stormclad suffers considerable damage against some list, but still it requires some beatsticks as well as caster support in melee.
Also it is almost unbeatable for a gun, although it was intended to do. I have played shooty list for years and I acknowledge that ARM 21 or more can't be harmed by guns with reasonable numbers. I have seen my Trollbloods friend cause big damage to my same Stormclad without Feat: Invincibility, but he needs at least two Dire Troll Bombers to do so. ARM 23 and more damage box means it endures even better even against the same target and we are Cygnar, not Trollbloods. Although our guns are generally better than them. Anyway in order to dispatch this you need to in melee with it, unless you can effectively reduce its ARM by at least 3 to 4(by combining either damage buff or ARM debuff).
2. You can still throw them: They are certainly more capable of putting out damage now, but their main job is still just to sit there and be hard to move. But the way I remember it, while they cannot be pushed, they can be thrown? Am I wrong? I could be, I'm finding it harder and harder to remember the details and rule interactions of this game. You know, from never getting the chance to play it. But it wasn't intended as trolling to say that you can throw them. And how many we have? For the most Cygnar lists, all we have that able to attempt to throw a thing is our colossal. 3. The Cyclone has two open fists and just got a point discount: I don't know if the model is good or bad, but I like how it looks and it does, indeed, have two open fists, making it capable of throwing a Clamjack. So I threw the idea out there. Yeah, I have a feeling that nobody on the Cygnar forums would actually consider it - one of the reasons I gave up coming here - but it's something I at least would be willing to try. I doubt anyone uses Cyclone other than a fun list, perhaps marshaled by ATGM officer. There is no point on use this crappy one, ever. It can't kill jacks, and it can't kill the infantry enough either, while it can't stop the enemy for their point and is easily dismantled against ranged attacks without Arcane Shield - what's the point on put a Cyclone on a list? It never serves us for a model with such points should, whatever it is kill stuffs or support the others, and it can't do both jobs at once either.
Perhaps, maybe? If clamjacks lacks Sturdy then someone might try it against Khador while marshaled by ATGM officer, but, can't you simply use Charger or Grenadier for same purpose? Although I do think that clamjacks should have Sturdy because of its very slow speed and its lack of versatility.
4. You were probably bringing a Colossal: I dunno, I thought they were considered OK? And they can certainly throw a Clamjack. Anyway, my impression is that Khador isn't in a bad state, but we're not exactly a powerhouse either. But who knows right now? I imagine it will take a little while for the new meta to emerge now that there's been so many changes. Maybe Cygnar will turn out to be in a good place after all. Or if not, maybe it will get there before too long - this new update shows that PP is willing to put the effort in and fix old models, so I'd say that's a good sign.
Well, it is doable, but if we have to then it is already a great tactical advantage of Khador, for lure a colossal by only a 14/16 point jack seems enough to turn the tide. And I think that a Khador player surely bring at least two clamajacks if the player want to teach who's boss against Cygnar gunline.
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Post by michael on Oct 24, 2021 22:42:57 GMT
Why try to shoot a Devastator? Trying to shoot it to death is the definition of “doing it wrong.” Control them instead: slam them, nuke their cortex, stick them in rough terrain, whatever. Regardless of theme, Cygnar has multiple ARM-debuffing mercenaries in their employ, including Ragman, Gorman1, and Hermit. ARM 21 is a heck of a lot easier to crack than ARM 23. Cygnar is the premier faction capable of frying cortexes. MAT 6 P+S 16 is bad enough for a heavy jack. A heavy that can’t boost (or charge/slam/trample/throw/headbutt) is just sad. Various casters in Cygnar have ridiculous control effects: Scramble, Telekinesis, Polarity Shield/Field, Voltaic Snare. As a group, more of Cygnar’s casters have straight up damage buffs compared to Khador casters: Positive Charge, Fury, Lightning Shroud, and others. Stack one of those and an ARM debuff, and you’ll wreck any Devastator chassis. Hammersmith. For real Cygnar dudes: you have one of the best combination control and damage-dealing heavies in the game available to you. Sure, Beat Back does nothing, but you can still Chain Attack: Smite and slam that Devastator chassis out of the zone. Add some of those damage buffs or ARM debuffs and watch what happens. Then watch as the Hammersmith lives through the paltry MAT 6 P+S 16 retaliation — assuming the Khador player wants to open up and drop to ARM 19. Now, if you want to talk strategy for particular themes, we can. But you can’t just go “Woe is me, the Khador player fielded an ARM 23 warjack, I auto-lose!”
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Post by droopingpuppy on Oct 25, 2021 3:33:52 GMT
I am already concluded that it is not meant to deal with by ranged attacks. Usually you need to bring a heavy. But I wonder that how many Cygnar players are bring a heavy in the first place, if they had a colossal.
Well I am the odd one, but that's because I didn't have my own(I can borrow these, though). Also at least for this topic, you won't want a colossal for maximize the effect of Feat: Blitz. Perhaps a Hurricane with Firefly assist seems not so bad either. Although you never, ever use its Arc Node - Haley1 has zero reason to use it, for all she could channel are plain DD and disruption thus you better spend it to Temporal Barrier and either allocation or Deadeye.
A side note: Put either Lancer or Thorn on Haley1 is nothing but waste your point. Keep it for Haley2 and 3.
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Post by darkangeldentist on Oct 25, 2021 9:51:06 GMT
Are you still playing MK2 michael?
Most of what you have said is accurate in respect that it is factually correct. It comes across very poorly though considering how little relevance it has to the list at the top of the thread. As an example of what someone would like to play, the issue of high armour is extremely relevant and one that it will struggle to deal with. Of your suggested “easy” solutions the ARM debuff solos like Ragman, Gorman and the Hermit are the most applicable. Keeping those solos alive to do their job is a game in itself though. One that Khador is not badly equipped to deal with either.
Cygnar does have, if you consider the entire faction and all the possible options it can call on, a wealth of choices to improve damage output. The Haley1 above does not have them and claiming that scramble is a “ridiculous” control effect seems equally ridiculous. If you are asserting that the droopingpuppy just needs to use a different list against Khador then it would come across better to say so plainly. Talking about how Cygnar can easily deal with high armour by listing off a bunch of things that are not present in the list at the top of the thread is not helpful.
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Post by michael on Oct 25, 2021 13:50:14 GMT
Are you still playing MK2 michael? Most of what you have said is accurate in respect that it is factually correct. It comes across very poorly though considering how little relevance it has to the list at the top of the thread. As an example of what someone would like to play, the issue of high armour is extremely relevant and one that it will struggle to deal with. Of your suggested “easy” solutions the ARM debuff solos like Ragman, Gorman and the Hermit are the most applicable. Keeping those solos alive to do their job is a game in itself though. One that Khador is not badly equipped to deal with either. Cygnar does have, if you consider the entire faction and all the possible options it can call on, a wealth of choices to improve damage output. The Haley1 above does not have them and claiming that scramble is a “ridiculous” control effect seems equally ridiculous. If you are asserting that the droopingpuppy just needs to use a different list against Khador then it would come across better to say so plainly. Talking about how Cygnar can easily deal with high armour by listing off a bunch of things that are not present in the list at the top of the thread is not helpful. My response was actually aimed at you and the "If I saw my opponent put a Devastator on the table, I'd concede" post above. :-P Scramble is a ridiculous control effect because it actually means in practice in this example "Spend 2 focus, roll anything but all 1's, and that jack is disrupted." The Forge Seer is the only model in Khador that can remove disruption, and it is limited to either Wolves of Winter or Jaws of the Wolf. Congrats, unless the Khador player feats, you've limited that Devastator to a 4" advance. :-P But anyway, something or the other. To make the long story short, there's nothing to be gained from a completely defeatist attitude. If you need help, ask for help. People will help. Saying "I'd quit if I saw somebody use a particular model" isn't cool. :-P
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Post by michael on Oct 25, 2021 14:02:42 GMT
Well, I cease to play Haley1 after Temporal Barrier lost its main purpose, thus Haley1 also lose the advantage over the other casters. Although she is boring to play - she is effectively a Temporal Barrier bot and she would be competitive with Maddox if we have to pick the most boring caster to play - but nonetheless I love to play her for decades, and... for some years I have to stick with Stryker1 and Caine1 while starting to lose the motivation to play the game. Although my remaining casters are still playable and fun.
But, it seems that her Temporal Barrier returns, and I may play her again.
[Haley 1] Captain Victoria Haley [+27] - Avenger [15] - Firefly [7] - Hunter [10] - Squire [4] Arcane Tempest Rifleman [3] Arcane Tempest Rifleman [3] Gun Mage Captain Adept [4] Journeyman Warcaster [3] - Hunter [10] Rhupert Carvolo, Piper of Ord [3] Stormblade Infantry [9] - Stormblade Infantry Officer & Standard [5] - Stormblade Infantry Storm Gunner (1) [2] Trencher Long Gunners (max) [15] - Trencher Long Gunner Officer [4]
This is a 70 point list(Note that Conflict Chamber did not updated the new update yet and I have adjusted it manually). For now it is a 80 point list, but after some days you may add even 5 points more, despite it lacks a theme force benefit!
I have played against my Trollbloods opponent for years and my tactics against him is simple; just take down all the heavies while leave my one, and they can't hurt my Arcane Shielded heavy. And Haley1 is one of the best pick for the ranged alpha strike, while Temporal Barrier also gives the second turn to shoot reliably. Shoot everything I got at once on the feat turn then maybe I can take down three Dire Trolls at once, as long as I can bring them on the right place. I knew that the warbeast is cease to be a threat only after kill it, for the warlock can restore all three aspects, so if you failed to surely kill it then it will haunt yours next turn. And my Stormblade Infantry is renown for making ranged attacks far frequently than swordplay, despite of their RNG 6 gun.
I wonder that it works against other factions, though. Perhaps it may deal with some Khador jack lists, for I am mainly target Dire Troll's ARM 20 which is same as Juggernaut chassis, but not only Juggernaut and Berserker are what Khador can bring. It seems that it still struggle to deal with Man-o-War.
I think it's solid. You'll struggle against Shocktroopers in Shield Wall, but I think you'll do okay against Demo Corps and so-so against Bombardiers. (You can kill Bombardiers, but you have a bunch of dudes who need to look out for blasts.) If you concentrate your fire, I think you could very reasonably bring down 2-4 non-Shocktroopers per turn just from the Gun Mages and fire support warjacks. Charging Stormblades, especially with Blitz, will easily kill non-Shocktrooper MoW 1-to-1. For Shield Wall Shocktroopers, my best suggestion in your list is big Trencher Long Gunner CRAs. It's not going to be fast or easy, but... My best suggestion there is the Avenger. Take out as many non-Shocktroopers on the approach as you can, and then send Stormblades into the Shocktroopers after softening some up with big CRAs and Deadly Shot and Hunters and whatnot? Hard to speculate without a counter list to use as an example.
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Post by darkangeldentist on Oct 25, 2021 16:09:17 GMT
My response was actually aimed at you and the "If I saw my opponent put a Devastator on the table, I'd concede" post above. :-P Scramble is a ridiculous control effect because it actually means in practice in this example "Spend 2 focus, roll anything but all 1's, and that jack is disrupted." The Forge Seer is the only model in Khador that can remove disruption, and it is limited to either Wolves of Winter or Jaws of the Wolf. Congrats, unless the Khador player feats, you've limited that Devastator to a 4" advance. :-P But anyway, something or the other. To make the long story short, there's nothing to be gained from a completely defeatist attitude. If you need help, ask for help. People will help. Saying "I'd quit if I saw somebody use a particular model" isn't cool. :-P My mistake. You also misread my post, it is the whole faction match up I am depressed about, not just a single model. In an earlier post I highlighted the clam jacks as being models that would present the Haley1 list at the top problems. In the post you are referring to I talked about Khador vs Cygnar. I am not purely hung up on the clam jacks when it comes to Khador. A defeatist attitude is indeed unhelpful but I am stuck for the time being. I played minions more to avoid the issue because I didn’t see a solution. I don’t think Cygnar always loses to Khador but that the match-up is never fun. It’s always too lopsided and that’s kind of miserable. That depresses me.
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Post by droopingpuppy on Oct 31, 2021 16:07:35 GMT
Sorry for late reply. And it was confirmed that Haley1 fully recovered Temporal Barrier(I have checked it on War Room). So after 'the plague' will be toned down I may do something with this.
I wonder what to fill the last 5 points, although I have few in option for the real models. An another GMCA+, or depend on the situation, such as Alten Ashley against Hordes? He is a capable sharpshooter so even against Warmachine Factions he may do something.
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Post by elmagnifico on Nov 2, 2021 5:01:30 GMT
Sorry for late reply. And it was confirmed that Haley1 fully recovered Temporal Barrier(I have checked it on War Room). So after 'the plague' will be toned down I may do something with this. I wonder what to fill the last 5 points, although I have few in option for the real models. An another GMCA+, or depend on the situation, such as Alten Ashley against Hordes? He is a capable sharpshooter so even against Warmachine Factions he may do something. If you're thinking about Alten, I'd consider an Express Team, keeps Grevious Wounds, less super-good into Hordes, about the same into Warmachine, and benefits from Haley's feat turn. Alternatively, if you wanted to buff some of the models already present rather than take a 5 point gun, you could take the Stormblade Captain to get your 'blades going faster, help both with not having Snipe and charging further; or Finn to make your trenchers more accurate and stab a bunch of people once the battle lines collide.
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