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Post by droopingpuppy on Oct 9, 2021 18:30:16 GMT
As you know PP have announced the massive updates of Warmachine and Hordes, that takes the major overhaul through the game. And, if I have to choose one thing that must be changed that is not tied on the single faction, it must be Lance. As you know, cavalry with a weapon with Lance have these problems; - It is the charge exclusive weapon, and you can't use it on the additional attacks(if it is possible)
- If one of your cavalrymen kills a charge target by the charge attack and/or impact attack, you lose all the remaining charge attack against the same target, for Lance only allows to make the charge attack so you can't make the melee attack against nearby enemy since it's not a charge attack.
- The weapons with Close Combat only make it worse - if you charged at least 3", lose the charge attack because of Lance's flaw doesn't let the model to attack with the weapon with Close Combat, leaves it not able to attack at all.
- Finally, were the cavalry with the weapon with Lance good in the first place? For example, will you think that Iron Fang Uhlan is quite competitive over Storm Lances, while both of them costs same PC and Storm Lances hits harder as much as Uhlan while doesn't have Lance on their melee weapon? Most cavalry units, especially for heavy one, are sucks because these are expensive, can only be used once per a game(for you can't expect them to be charge more than once per a game usually) and also bear such a ridiculous bug with Lance.
Well, they may makes most cavalry usable, perhaps. But what about Lance? Is there any faint hope that they may fix it to at least allow relocating attack when the model cannot making charge attack due to removed charge target? Else, as they throw away it for decades in MKII, even on the 'major overhaul' in the new edition era it cannot have any love?
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Post by Gamingdevil on Oct 12, 2021 11:56:06 GMT
I feel like if they were going to change it, we would've already heard about it. Also, I don't agree with your generalization; the Champion of the Order of the Wall has a great Lance and if they simply dropped the rule, it would have a POW 16 on top of a POW 12 Weapon Master attack.
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Post by droopingpuppy on Oct 12, 2021 20:10:42 GMT
I don't think that simply dropping the Lance ability seems good so much, although most cavalry units are still not that good even if we did that. Also I didn't said that it is good to simply remove Lance ability - at least give mediocre units with a weapon with Lance some love, and/or fix weird interaction of Lance.
And I need to mention that my faction cannot access for any model with Lance, so it can be biased. But I remember many Khador players argue for Storm Lances' melee prowess, at least, and that was quite reasonable even for me. The Storm Lances' melee weapons were got buffed because their ranged weapon's damage buff of Major Laddermore was cut and that's just for keep their expected damage output. And many Khador players are pointed out that, 'why Storm Lances keeps the weapon without a Lance that is as much as powerful as Uhlan's weapon with Lance?' Personally I think that whatever the melee unit has the weapon with Lance or not they can't make charge more than once per a game in the most times therefore they are nothing but the jamming unit after the charge, but after all they have the point - Lances has charge only penalty but they didn't got enough reward for it.
The champion is good, but he should for he is the solo model that can't do much other than fight for himself, by the way.
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Post by Soul Samurai on Oct 14, 2021 6:03:27 GMT
I like the idea behind the Lance rule on a thematic level, but (because of the way Warmachine works perhaps) in-game it's too fiddly. Better to just stick to rules like Powerful/Brutal Charge. Maybe make Lance something like "This model gains an additional die on charge attack damage rolls" and let that be the end of it.
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Post by Havock on Oct 19, 2021 14:44:33 GMT
The problem isn't that the models have Lances.
It's that they have letter-openers for backup and are mildly more threatening than a box of puppies after they blow their load.
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Post by droopingpuppy on Oct 19, 2021 20:46:07 GMT
Sure, the 'bug' on Lance may let the players to avoid the cavalry with a weapon with Lance, but that's nothing more than a minor reason to avoid these. For example, will pre-nerf Storm Lances simply makes sense if their weapon has Lance and has a RNG 0.5" Close Combat weapon with P+S 9? Not really - it has nothing to do with their overall performance, both before and now. Most of us don't use a cavalry unit because they are sucks, not because they had a weapon with Lance. If they were good enough, they will do use them even with bear the penalty of having a weapon with Lance.
But as we know the interaction of Lance and cavalry unit is sucks, and it may a start to make cavalry playable, at least.
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Post by Soul Samurai on Oct 20, 2021 8:15:34 GMT
The problem isn't that the models have Lances. It's that they have letter-openers for backup and are mildly more threatening than a box of puppies after they blow their load. If they didn't have a significantly inferior weapon as the non-lance weapon, then what would be the point of the rule? They might as well just not bother with it. |
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Post by Havock on Oct 20, 2021 10:59:26 GMT
Visual appeal? Those uhlan sticks are quite unwieldy.
If they had, say, a couple of cavalry axes as backup at, say, PS9 weapon master that would be nice. Biggest issue is cost, I can live with them being about the charge of they hp down in cost.
But that's like, par for the course for Iron Fangs.
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Post by droopingpuppy on Oct 20, 2021 22:13:36 GMT
Well, are the melee units do anything other than jamming after the charge or got charged? I remember that melee units are not able to free from the lock and/or not got charged on the enemy turn and let them charge more than once in a game, provided the opponent is not a newbie. Sure SOME troopers in a unit may had a chance but that's far from the full strength, and usually those have the chance to charge were not able to charge last turn.
Anyway, if they cannot charge all the melee units can are either dying out, dying out but prevent the enemy to out of melee range, or only able to kill the infantry. Perhaps P+S 9 Close Combat do nothing other than kill the infantry, but will it really got changed if you have a P+S 14 Electronic Lance? Still all it can is nothing more than kill the infantry, for P+S 14 without boosted damage roll cannot do anything noticeable against a heavy unless you can have around 10+ attacks.
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