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Post by Havock on May 16, 2021 23:03:33 GMT
Infinity has trouble drawing in new players because if the immensely high skill ceiling; we like to joke about the difference between WMH vets and new players but it's even worse in Infinity due to the nature of the order and reaction system plus the line of sigh system and roughly twenty-thousand special abilities.
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cain
Junior Strategist
Posts: 243
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Post by cain on May 17, 2021 8:45:46 GMT
Infinity has trouble drawing in new players because if the immensely high skill ceiling; we like to joke about the difference between WMH vets and new players but it's even worse in Infinity due to the nature of the order and reaction system plus the line of sigh system and roughly twenty-thousand special abilities. As an active warmachine and Infinity player I disagree that its a big difference here. I view bouth game as rather complex miniature games with a huge backlog of models/profiles and a high skill ceiling. The complexity is a little different though. Warmahordes has rather clean and short basic rules. The complexity is that all the models has a lot different skill/spelles/feat and that they can combo. Infinity has more complex and longer main rules. When you get to the profiles its more easy IMO. The profiles has a lot of the same weapons/skills. The game is also mostly free of combos. They bouth have a barrier/problem with attracting new players. Point was that CB seemingly is trying harder to do something for recruiting and marketing.
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Post by Charistoph on May 17, 2021 16:59:40 GMT
As an active warmachine and Infinity player I disagree that its a big difference here. I view bouth game as rather complex miniature games with a huge backlog of models/profiles and a high skill ceiling. The complexity is a little different though. Warmahordes has rather clean and short basic rules. The complexity is that all the models has a lot different skill/spelles/feat and that they can combo. Infinity has more complex and longer main rules. When you get to the profiles its more easy IMO. The profiles has a lot of the same weapons/skills. The game is also mostly free of combos. And yet those differences are rather big. WMH starts out simple and then piles on complexity while Infinity starts off with all its complexity up front and then then allows it to be simple from there. Infinity does suffer from a similar packaging problem as WMH, but at least it was expected to run a force of Solos on a skirmish level in Infinity instead of relying on units to bull the way through.
One possible side issue that Infinity has when compared to WMH, the size of the models. They aren't heroic scale and when I can fit a model's body wholly within the size of one of my fingers, I feel clumsy even thinking of fitting together something smaller than the average Morat, and my fingers are not exactly overly large for the average wargamer (okay, maybe a little large). Meanwhile, WMH's heroic scale only runs in to problems when handling something like the Nyss Hunters.
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Post by marxlives on May 21, 2021 15:38:01 GMT
CHYNA!!!
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Post by marxlives on May 21, 2021 15:50:53 GMT
For me personally, my area of London, there are now 0 active WM/H players that we area aware of. Malifaux, there is a good healthy group of people. Our local gaming club is happy to give them a home and they are growing with new recruits from the interest they have gathered over the lockdown. For WM/H the games club owner doesn’t even want the game played in the club. Oh well if you aren't even "allowed" to Play Wm/H then how would any healthy community develop? I have heard that with Wyrd. I don't know if this is an intentional part of the company. More popularity overseas = more focus on that market. I don't thik CB/Wyrd/PP are going anywhere. AMG is part of Asmodee so their success would be more along if they lose the Disney licenses will they be able to break out their RuneQuest aka Descent IP into the wargame market. When it comes to CB/Wyrd/PP they need to follow Battletech's path (since they already charted it) and break out into other media. If it wasn't for BT novels, comics, video games, IP would have died along time ago due to the wargame having regional popularity. CB/Wyrd/PP need to break into the video game market. Doesn't have to be something over the top, like with White Moon Dreams scammed PP. But CB and Wyrd could have a Harebrain schemes type of RPG with a 2 player fight function. Heck CB could bank on nostolgia and do an 8 bit RPG. PP could take thier High Command deck game and just make it into a basic MTG digital card game. But they got to break out of the Seattle-Portland cottage industry for local Globo-Corp suits market they bank on and think globally. I think CB might be doing it do to location and Wyrd due to focus but all of them need to break out of just minis. And to be clear, I would Kickstart feasible digital games from all three of those companies.
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Post by marxlives on May 21, 2021 15:59:15 GMT
... While PP has done some huge misteps mostly around losing their MonPoc license to Hollywood for a decade when the product was at its height in popularity and have a shell company called White Moon Dreams scam their PP and their players out of KS money, and abandoning their indie business strategies to adopt public trading corp business strategies (bold but dumb) ... I do not think you have a solid grasp on what you're talking about. I doubt "getting paid a bunch of money to license MonPoc's IP, conveniently at roughly the same time the bottom fell out of the collectible pre-painted minis market" could rightly be categorized as "losing the license to Hollywood when the product was at its height in popularity." The blind buy fatigue in the community was very, very real, and I saw people burning out fast near the end. I think your analysis here is flawed. Regarding "... have a shell company called White Moon Dreams scam their PP and their players out of KS money ...": Umm...they delivered a playable video game. You know that, right? We can absolutely discuss permutations on "I think the project could have been handled better", but, like...they did what they promised, in the main. The Tactics community was not exactly full of cool people, sadly, and the game had a painful learning curve that felt even more punishing than tabletop WM/H. The absolutely endless stream of Female Doging and moaning about the game on both the PP forums, and the WhiteMoon Dreams forums, and in lots of other places, helped make those complaints a nicely self-fulfilling prophecy. The expected revenue from ongoing game sales dried up, and they ran out of money to keep supporting the game. It happens. I can give you some email addresses and you can email various WMD people and call them a "shell company ... that scammed PP out of their money" and see how they react. You literally don't know what you're talking about. Have you ever spoken directly with any of the developers there? Or Matt Wilson or anyone else at PP about the game? Or is this just standard Internet knowledge-free BS-ing passed off as knowledge and truth? Sounds like you are too personally connected to the Portland-Seattle cottage industry scam artist communities out there. I checked out White Moon Dreams, I see a bunch of assists. I see more promise putting my money in Zynga stock than WMDs. Zynga can at least produce a Warmachine/Hordes themed slot machine game to be hosted in S. Korea that would turn more profits than WMD. As someone who doesn't live in your area, I can see your culture and mindset IS the problem. The world is not Pacific Northwest. PP and Wyrd need to break out of the local cottage industry and hussle that the gaming culture in that area has degenerated to and has only gotten worse with Co-Vid by investing their IPs to areas outside of miniature wargaming. You are a fool, and your stonks advise probably sinks ships.
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Post by MacGuffin on May 21, 2021 20:33:18 GMT
This thread took quite a turn! In the meantime I wonder if PP will start selling stormclads again before the storm division update. Hard to expand the reach of a game whose models are unavailable indefinitely.
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zhoe
Junior Strategist
Posts: 254
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Post by zhoe on May 21, 2021 23:10:25 GMT
i hav decided dat u can no longr discass teh warjak/warbeasst shrotage now
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Post by michael on May 22, 2021 14:58:29 GMT
Sounds like you are too personally connected to the Portland-Seattle cottage industry scam artist communities out there. I checked out White Moon Dreams, I see a bunch of assists. I see more promise putting my money in Zynga stock than WMDs. Zynga can at least produce a Warmachine/Hordes themed slot machine game to be hosted in S. Korea that would turn more profits than WMD. As someone who doesn't live in your area, I can see your culture and mindset IS the problem. The world is not Pacific Northwest. PP and Wyrd need to break out of the local cottage industry and hussle that the gaming culture in that area has degenerated to and has only gotten worse with Co-Vid by investing their IPs to areas outside of miniature wargaming. You are a fool, and your stonks advise probably sinks ships. Once again, and said politely as possible: you do not know what you’re talking about. Educate yourself and have an informed conversation, instead of spewing uninformed “armchair quarterback” nonsense. Why shouldn’t PP shack up with Zynga and rake in those billions just waiting to be grabbed? Let’s start with one first-year marketing student concept: brand dilution. brandmarketingblog.com/articles/branding-definitions/what-is-brand-dilution/Bear in mind that brand dilution is only one of a myriad of considerations. Follow up with core competencies (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Core_competency) and continue from there. Not to mention that Zynga is not a healthy company, nor does it have a remotely positive reputation in the industry: Google “nasdaq:znga financials” ew.com/article/2012/02/03/triple-town-david-edery-cloning/I’m going to say that I am delighted by the accusation that I am “in the pocket of Big Seattle”, but nothing productive will come from that, so I choose to let it slide. I do not have first-hand knowledge of either PP or WMD, because I don’t work at either. However, I absolutely talk to people and have friends/acquaintances in both companies, formed chiefly through face-to-face discussions at conventions. Surprisingly, everyone who works at these companies are actual people, not nameless, faceless simplified monolithic caricatures as implied in these sorts of discussions. They literally are industry professionals who know how to do their jobs. I am at least aware enough to say “I don’t know” when I am out of my depth. It behooves us all to acknowledge the limits of our understanding.
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Post by marxlives on May 24, 2021 17:40:27 GMT
Sounds like you are too personally connected to the Portland-Seattle cottage industry scam artist communities out there. I checked out White Moon Dreams, I see a bunch of assists. I see more promise putting my money in Zynga stock than WMDs. Zynga can at least produce a Warmachine/Hordes themed slot machine game to be hosted in S. Korea that would turn more profits than WMD. As someone who doesn't live in your area, I can see your culture and mindset IS the problem. The world is not Pacific Northwest. PP and Wyrd need to break out of the local cottage industry and hussle that the gaming culture in that area has degenerated to and has only gotten worse with Co-Vid by investing their IPs to areas outside of miniature wargaming. You are a fool, and your stonks advise probably sinks ships. Once again, and said politely as possible: you do not know what you’re talking about. Educate yourself and have an informed conversation, instead of spewing uninformed “armchair quarterback” nonsense. Why shouldn’t PP shack up with Zynga and rake in those billions just waiting to be grabbed? Let’s start with one first-year marketing student concept: brand dilution. brandmarketingblog.com/articles/branding-definitions/what-is-brand-dilution/Bear in mind that brand dilution is only one of a myriad of considerations. Follow up with core competencies (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Core_competency) and continue from there. Not to mention that Zynga is not a healthy company, nor does it have a remotely positive reputation in the industry: Google “nasdaq:znga financials” ew.com/article/2012/02/03/triple-town-david-edery-cloning/I’m going to say that I am delighted by the accusation that I am “in the pocket of Big Seattle”, but nothing productive will come from that, so I choose to let it slide. I do not have first-hand knowledge of either PP or WMD, because I don’t work at either. However, I absolutely talk to people and have friends/acquaintances in both companies, formed chiefly through face-to-face discussions at conventions. Surprisingly, everyone who works at these companies are actual people, not nameless, faceless simplified monolithic caricatures as implied in these sorts of discussions. They literally are industry professionals who know how to do their jobs. I am at least aware enough to say “I don’t know” when I am out of my depth. It behooves us all to acknowledge the limits of our understanding. I will say this as politely say this, you are writing like a fool, who has no business/market knowledge, and you are not in the pocket of Big Seattle (I don't think anyone outside of the Portand-Seattle area knows what that means), I am saying your personal connection and inbred/insular geographic awareness to your local area as the world makes your perspective less, not more reliable. The fact that you missed the whole point of compariing Zynga (a company you had no knowledge of before this post, but seriously you should get into "owning the means of production" by becoming an active investor) as healthier than the Portland-Seattle cottage industry and White Moon Dreams in group welfare program studio just nails down the point. While Atomic Mass Games will be okay when (not if) they lose the Disney license. This is due to the potential for them producing Runebound miniwargames since that is Asmodee owned. For those real people you know, they need to diversify their profolio, and it can't just be another miniature wargame. They need to follow BattleTech's example and get at least 1 digital property success. It can range from anything. PP could relaunch High Command as a digital competitive card game, Infinity could do an OG 8 or 16 bit RPG, Wyrd doing a Wasteland 2 esque sort of game, either of these could Indiegogo a comic and work with creators whose numbers show they know how to sell a comic book. All projects I would kickstart, all projects important to each companies long term health beyond the current "just blow up the SKU until the whole house of cards collapses" approach. That approach hurts the IP and the companies (which I assume want to make money to give people raises and hire more people) by making them seem like illegitimate cottage industry scams while 40k, Asmodee appear legitimate. While the people in the smaller studios are hard working and have people in them (a void point that goes without saying, even people in South Asia who farm WoW gold and characters to sell are people with families) the maket perception matters. It carries value, and it is something within their control. There is a bubble in the Portland-Seattle area that is building and those companies that are not Globo-Corp owned will go under if they stay within their inbred circle and don't reach out to markets, business partners, opportunities outside that circle.
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Post by Havock on May 24, 2021 21:51:38 GMT
The biggest problem that WM:Tactics had wasn't that it was a so-so game but that it ran absolutely abysmal. People are willing to overlook mediocre gameplay if the setting is cool and vice versa.
Nobody expected a top-shelf game, but it ran like absolute trash on my previous rig, which wasn't that terrible at the time.
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