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Post by michael on Jan 16, 2021 17:38:38 GMT
For reference:
Orsus Zoktavir, the Butcher of Khardov – Claws of the Dragon (NQ41)
Models allowed: Khador non-character warjacks without ranged weapons, Battle Mechaniks, Iron Fang units, Iron Fang solos, Manhunter, or War Dog solos.
Tier 1: Requirements: Only the models listed. Benefit: Iron Fang Pikemen units with Black Dragon Officer & Standard unit attachments gain Advance Move.(Before the start of the game but after both players have deployed, a model with Advance Move can make a full advance.) Additionally, increase the FA of Iron Fang Pikemen units by 1.
Tier 2: Requirements: War Dog. Benefit: You gain +1 on your starting roll for the game.
Tier 3: Requirements: Two or more Iron Fang Pikemen units. Benefit: Add a Black Dragon Officer & Standard unit attachment to one Iron Fang Pikemen unit free of cost. This unit attachment ignores FA restrictions.
Tier 4: Requirements: The Butcher’s battlegroup include two or more warjacks. Benefit: Models in the Butcher’s battlegroup gain Advance Move.(Before the start of the game but after both players have deployed, a model with Advance Move can make a full advance.)
That made it entirely feasible to make a list like this. (Ignore the point costs.)
Khador
[Butcher 1] Orsus Zoktavir, The Butcher of Khardov [+28] - Juggernaut [13] - Kodiak [13] - War Dog [3] Iron Fang Kovnik [4] Manhunter [4] Uhlan Kovnik Markov [7] Black Dragons (max) [17] - Black Dragon Officer & Standard [4] Black Dragons (max) [17] - Black Dragon Officer & Standard [4] Great Bears of the Gallowswood [9] Iron Fang Pikemen (max) [15] - Iron Fang Pikemen Officer & Standard [4] Iron Fang Uhlans (max) [20]
What did you have here?
You had over 40 bodies on the table, at least 24 of which began the game at the 16" line, along with jacks that started at the 14" line. The regular IFP could minifeat and run, then reposition into Shield Wall, then have Iron Flesh applied, leaving a total of 12 models with DEF 16 ARM 18 sitting at upwards of the 28" line on the table. (Congratulations, you now owned that zone.) Meanwhile, the rest of the army could position for the counter-punch against whatever was sent to deal with the Iron-Fleshed IFP.
...and whoever dealt with those IFP got to eat a whole lot of charges, including cavalry charges, possibly all backed up by Fury and Butcher's feat.
It worked! It was a good theme.
....anyway, I won't get any deeper into "how I'd change Legion of Steel to make it functional" right now, because it's a lot of wishlisting... :-P
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Post by michael on Jan 16, 2021 17:39:02 GMT
Gotta be honest, I was just hoping for a "lol" or something. I appreciated it.
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Post by Havock on Jan 16, 2021 19:42:02 GMT
Honestly, at this point I think the theme can be mostly kept the same (sans perhaps the freebie options), just cut down on the pikemen point cost. "but what if Do-IFP were 10 points."
Well 10 might be lowballing it but still,if the theme's schtick is a a mass of relatively vulnerable dudes (as opposed to barely outnumbering AC as they are now)tgat would be alright. Like, bracket them as Steelhead Halberdiers and see what happens. Just building up a would-be list would net you your solos, three full units + UA and points for other stuff. But we're firmly derailed into "fixing LoS" now :v
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Post by michael on Jan 16, 2021 21:14:21 GMT
Honestly, at this point I think the theme can be mostly kept the same (sans perhaps the freebie options), just cut down on the pikemen point cost. "but what if Do-IFP were 10 points." Well 10 might be lowballing it but still,if the theme's schtick is a a mass of relatively vulnerable dudes (as opposed to barely outnumbering AC as they are now)tgat would be alright. Like, bracket them as Steelhead Halberdiers and see what happens. Just building up a would-be list would net you your solos, three full units + UA and points for other stuff. But we're firmly derailed into "fixing LoS" now :v My "sweet spot" (if I remember correctly) was: - Bring both IFP and Black Dragon units down to 13 points - Make the IFP and BD CA's 3 points - Make the IF Kovnik 3 points - Make the Great Bears 6 points - And shave 2 points off both the min/max Uhlans (although this was loooooong before the cross-faction cavalry theme, but I doubt it's a big deal) In addition, echo more of Claws of the Dragon, and allow Manhunters (also 3 points) and Widowmaker Scouts (!!!1!) into the theme. Sofya's free, Markov goes to 6 points and is free, and then you're pretty much sitting pretty. Although, true fact, DEF 16 ARM 18 IFP (MK II Iron Flesh) are actually noticeably more survivable than DEF 12 ARM 20 (MK III Iron Flesh) IFP, at least the last time I did the "what kills IFP" mental exercise. Also, my changes were thought out looooong before archons, so I have never taken the archons into consideration when thinking about how this theme needs to change to make it useful in modern day. And as an aside, here's how I figured it could be justified against our other themes: Winter Guard - shooty dudespam theme (but also very flexible, as others have pointed out, plays for either attrition or scenario) Doom Reavers - fast unpredictable glass cannon dudespam (also wildly inflexible in list building, this only plays for scenario in my experience) Man-o-War - slow, super-durable dudespam (attrition or scenario) Iron Fangs - fast, durable dudespam (attrition or scenario) Umm...I had another important point to make in regards to "why IFP is significantly differentiated from Doom Reavers", but I don't remember what it was. It'll come to me.
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olaf
Junior Strategist
Posts: 101
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Post by olaf on Jan 16, 2021 21:54:11 GMT
Honestly, at this point I think the theme can be mostly kept the same (sans perhaps the freebie options), just cut down on the pikemen point cost. "but what if Do-IFP were 10 points." Well 10 might be lowballing it but still,if the theme's schtick is a a mass of relatively vulnerable dudes (as opposed to barely outnumbering AC as they are now)tgat would be alright. Like, bracket them as Steelhead Halberdiers and see what happens. Just building up a would-be list would net you your solos, three full units + UA and points for other stuff. But we're firmly derailed into "fixing LoS" now :v Honestly I don't mind derails that much. I've been on a bunch of forums where people are very sticky about that and it just feels better if discussions can go where they go. I don't really want to run 40 pikemen though... I'm good with the IFP and BD unit I have.
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Post by michael on Jan 16, 2021 21:58:25 GMT
I do not know if there is really any other way to run an army without guns successfully, though.
I mean, FA: 2 cavalry aren’t gonna cut it, especially not the “please please please never let me get stuck in melee where I can’t charge” Uhlans.
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sorokin
Junior Strategist
Posts: 775
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Post by sorokin on Jan 16, 2021 21:58:49 GMT
Homebrew themes are an interesting idea I hadn't considered before. Here's one I came up with, hopefully it's not too OP: Thoughts? lol
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olaf
Junior Strategist
Posts: 101
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Post by olaf on Jan 16, 2021 22:11:06 GMT
I do not know if there is really any other way to run an army without guns successfully, though. I mean, FA: 2 cavalry aren’t gonna cut it, especially not the “please please please never let me get stuck in melee where I can’t charge” Uhlans. Don't run armies without guns. Make a theme where Vlad2 can take Uhlans. Two min units of Uhlans with Vlad2 is murder. You just need the rest of the army to not be LoS. IFP aren't that survivable. The usefulness of arm scales with the number of wounds you have. On single wound models either they need to be cheap or high def to be survivable for real. The whole stick of 'heavy armored single wounds' is self defeating. Also... 14 base arm isn't really that heavy. Yeah you can buff it, but since it's single wounds that doesn't matter. +4 arm on a 20 arm warjack is 20 less wounds taken when they get hit five times by an enemy heavy. +4 arm on a single wound model means it still dies on the first hit. The thing with doom reavers is you can kill them if you want, but also you have to. They hit to hard. You can't let them live. "Oh look I killed almost all your doom reavers" is the last words of a warcaster about to loose either his head or something else he really cares about. IFP aren't quite that glass cannony. Doom Reavers are also the only advance deploy heavy hitting melee troop we have. That's huge. The once per game reposition isn't equivalent here since it doesn't activate on a run. If you have an army that'd be uncomfortable going second, one of the best solution for that is to grab a doom reaver squad. It's a shame they're locked into a single theme. In summary I still think my Jackhunter combined arms theme would be fun. And all themes should include widowmaker models.
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Post by michael on Jan 16, 2021 22:26:11 GMT
I agree with a lot of that, and you’ll note I said that bit about how MK II IFP were a lot more survivable than MK III IFP, for the reasons listed.
But I’m also beholden today being realistic. We’re never going to get a caster-based DEF buff ever again, because nobody’s going to let the old days of nutty Khador DEF ~20 dudes happen again. For whatever reason, the design mandate seems to be “Khador really is the low DEF high ARM* faction now”, rather than “Khador looks like low DEF high ARM but it’s actually the other way around when you play against them” like it was in MK I & II.
Also, yes, I agree that “generic” models like the Manhunters and Widowmakers should be much less restricted than they are, but it’s not going to happen...
Something something et cetera.
* not that high, but whatever
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Post by droopingpuppy on Jan 16, 2021 22:27:00 GMT
Homebrew themes are an interesting idea I hadn't considered before. Here's one I came up with, hopefully it's not too OP: Thoughts? Although I am not Khadoran, but I do like non-theme force list even now, and I don't think that theme force benefit is making theme force a mandatory choice, for my faction's generally bad themes and lack of models/motivation to grab the only good theme in my faction. Of course I am an oddball, and I am sure that most players in my faction will try a theme force rather than go no theme at all.
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olaf
Junior Strategist
Posts: 101
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Post by olaf on Jan 16, 2021 22:39:50 GMT
I tried a lot of no themes when they first came, it didn't work out to well. If they just didn't have the point buff I think they'd be ok. A no theme +15 to +20 points really would be fine with me. You'd still have the theme benefits if you wanted to run a theme.
What units do you think Iron Fangs work best with? For Uhlans, eliminators are actually pretty great. You run them up behind the Uhlans and they are difficult to target with blasts. If anything runs into to engage the uhlans and stop their charge the elims can charge trough the Uhlans and clear them out.
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Post by michael on Jan 17, 2021 1:29:18 GMT
... What units do you think Iron Fangs work best with? For Uhlans, eliminators are actually pretty great. You run them up behind the Uhlans and they are difficult to target with blasts. If anything runs into to engage the uhlans and stop their charge the elims can charge trough the Uhlans and clear them out. But the Uhlans are then trapped behind the Eliminators, leaving them unable to charge, yes? Back in MK II, IFP always paired well with Doom Reavers, Winter Guard, and Widowmakers. The IFP acted as a durable bullet sponge that was a credible threat in its own right, while screening other things that could deal damage to the stuff that could prey on IFP.
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Post by Soul Samurai on Jan 17, 2021 5:24:32 GMT
Side-Step should help with that right?
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Post by Soul Samurai on Jan 17, 2021 5:32:05 GMT
Although I am not Khadoran, but I do like non-theme force list even now, and I don't think that theme force benefit is making theme force a mandatory choice, for my faction's generally bad themes and lack of models/motivation to grab the only good theme in my faction. Of course I am an oddball, and I am sure that most players in my faction will try a theme force rather than go no theme at all. Sadly I haven't gotten in too many games in MkIII, and they were all very casual, but all the games I did get I played without a theme. I don't really like to buy the same model twice (unless I have significantly different modelling/painting plans for the second one), so I generally don't run multiples of stuff. I like to bring a variety of different models, and themes don't work well with that, at least not at higher point levels. At lower point levels it feels more reasonable; I wouldn't mind running a theme at 25 points since I would likely only be bringing one or at most two small units and a couple of solos at that point anyway. But generally yeah, I just bring whatever and forget the themes.
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Post by Havock on Jan 17, 2021 11:29:07 GMT
That's part of why I bought in Crucible Guard; their basic theme is basically the faction.
And when it comes to Khador, I like the focused diversity of Warriors of the Old Faith and I would play AC if I didn't find it so hard to justify sinking that much money into a game I can't really play casually (in in: local players are gone) anymore.
There's nothing wrong with themes it's just that Khador suffered initially when they broke up the faction in cookie cutter by-unit type factions when it was very much designed as a combined arms faction.
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