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Post by pangurban on May 11, 2017 11:36:24 GMT
Re:2 You're right, that would be revisionist history, which is why I am not arguing that. I'm saying that SR 2017 has it as well, and to claim otherwise is incorrect. In fact, that part is more emphasized now because you can't win quickly on scenario. You need to use more attrition based strategies to eventually score a scenario victory. Nobody's arguing that scenario wins aren't possible. But IME, scenario as an alternative to attrition (or even scenario as a way to force your opponent to commit or make unfavourable trades) seems to have largely gone away. It seems that in nearly every case, CP wins happen after the grind has been more-or-less decided. Including most of the supposed "scenario wins" people have posted here. And everyone being forced to grind would be 100% fine if all factions had Khador levels of ARM-and-boxes-per-point. They don't. Honest question: what kind of scenario wins are we talking about here, that are an alternative to attrition? For the overwhelming majority of casters attrition is pretty much the only scenario tool they have.
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Deller
Junior Strategist
I’m on a Boat
Posts: 605
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Post by Deller on May 11, 2017 11:53:00 GMT
Nobody's arguing that scenario wins aren't possible. But IME, scenario as an alternative to attrition (or even scenario as a way to force your opponent to commit or make unfavourable trades) seems to have largely gone away. It seems that in nearly every case, CP wins happen after the grind has been more-or-less decided. Including most of the supposed "scenario wins" people have posted here. And everyone being forced to grind would be 100% fine if all factions had Khador levels of ARM-and-boxes-per-point. They don't. Honest question: what kind of scenario wins are we talking about here, that are an alternative to attrition? For the overwhelming majority of casters attrition is pretty much the only scenario tool they have. Think the old days of Deneghra2 jamming 2 units of Sacrifical Satyxis Raiders down your throat & feating to just keep you out of scoring & contesting range long enough to score 5 points and win. She was actively throwing away 40% of her army with the sole purpose of slowing you down long enough to win on scenario. You'd see Legion lists that couldn't attrition 10 Khador heavies so they'd use multiple Angelius that would just repulse the heavies out of zones to score. Gorten & Krueger2 who'd feat models away from scenario elements to get a turn of bonus scoring. Magnus2 who'd clear a zone & use his feat to get a full turn of uncontested scoring while knocked down with Feign Death. For many scenario focused lists in SR 2016 the game plan wasn't how to I kill my opponent's models. The game plan was how do I get my opponent's models out of the zone & how do I keep them out. Yes sometimes they simply killed models, but that's only because death is the best form of crowd control.
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princeraven
Junior Strategist
Shredder spam is best spam
Posts: 256
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Post by princeraven on May 11, 2017 11:58:16 GMT
Honest question: what kind of scenario wins are we talking about here, that are an alternative to attrition? For the overwhelming majority of casters attrition is pretty much the only scenario tool they have. Many of my recent games under Steamroller 2016 have involved me desperately trying to fend off Karchev and 8 heavies while racking up points hoping I could get to 5 before I lose everything standing between them and my caster.
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Post by Azuresun on May 11, 2017 13:47:00 GMT
Honest question: what kind of scenario wins are we talking about here, that are an alternative to attrition? For the overwhelming majority of casters attrition is pretty much the only scenario tool they have. Think the old days of Deneghra2 jamming 2 units of Sacrifical Satyxis Raiders down your throat & feating to just keep you out of scoring & contesting range long enough to score 5 points and win. She was actively throwing away 40% of her army with the sole purpose of slowing you down long enough to win on scenario. You'd see Legion lists that couldn't attrition 10 Khador heavies so they'd use multiple Angelius that would just repulse the heavies out of zones to score. Gorten & Krueger2 who'd feat models away from scenario elements to get a turn of bonus scoring. Magnus2 who'd clear a zone & use his feat to get a full turn of uncontested scoring while knocked down with Feign Death. For many scenario focused lists in SR 2016 the game plan wasn't how to I kill my opponent's models. The game plan was how do I get my opponent's models out of the zone & how do I keep them out. Yes sometimes they simply killed models, but that's only because death is the best form of crowd control. And it's worth noting that the big "get three CP in a turn" gambits didn't have to win the game. They also served to put pressure on an opponent, to force them to keep putting stuff onto objectives even when they'd prefer to hang back. And I've never felt that pressure in 17, because even if they do get some CP, it's easy enough for the other player to simply push through their assassination plan, or to grind the other army down and pull back ahead later on.
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Post by Big Fat Troll on May 15, 2017 0:55:42 GMT
Not going to comment yet on the scenarios because I'm in the middle of finals papers, but I said at the beginning that if this thread escalated we would have issues. Big Fat, you went WAY too far, so I'm giving you a few days off. Defamation is actually a criminal offense, and sharing PMs is a big Buttmunch move. Come back later this week with a clear head, and understand that differing opinions do not make people evil. Cyel, your post about Grey was purely an attack and contributed literally nothing to the thread. Keep your cool next time and I won't have to talk to you again.
As I said at the beginning of this thread, this is a topic that very easily falls into attacks and aggression, and I do not have the time to deal with this nicely right now. If I have to so much as look at this thread in the next week, it's getting locked and I wiill not hesitate to put people in time-out.
In short, stop being buttmunches and learn to get along. Thank you. FWIW, it was not about anyone's opinions, but rather behavior. Unfortunately, that includes my own. Without getting into the gory details, I've had a lot going on and I have not dealt with it at all well. I'm sure that anyone who has to deal with me on Vassal has noticed. I apologize to you all for that.
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isotope
Junior Strategist
Posts: 634
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Post by isotope on May 15, 2017 7:00:22 GMT
Im starting to actually consider gorten with all the jr warlocks as a legit list. They're a warrior model and a beast/jack, his small control and low focus dont matter as much, you can basically be running a " heavy spam" with 7 heavies and 20 focus/ fury...
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Post by HereComesTomorrow on May 15, 2017 11:02:00 GMT
I won with Rhyas1 on scenario again. Some would claim it was attrition because I killed most of his army but to them I say "how else does an army of ninjas + a gribbly floating tentacle beastie going to win on scenario?"
Incidentally I love the addition of terrain set up and the central obstruction in SR2017. It changes the game much.
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Post by paradox on May 18, 2017 0:37:35 GMT
I won on scenario in SR2017. 15-14. In turn 7. With about 5 models left on the board.
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Post by oncomingstorm on May 18, 2017 9:04:05 GMT
I won on Scenario with SR2017 - Standoff, 6-0, playing Issyria into Kallus2. I'd pretty much won on attrition already, though, and he had very few units, and was thus unable to score circle zones effectively.
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