|
Post by sand20go on Feb 27, 2020 17:50:57 GMT
Ok folks.
For those that are a bit late to the party in Mark1 one of the "fun" things you could do is chuck a no knock down Drakhun forward and then get the big boy up and charge. It was "fun" but probably not in the spirit of the game as you would have lists that had that ridiculousness.
Well we got it back again. THough about this today. ;-)
Fiona+Nemo4+Toro
Conditions required. Something that isn't spell immune <13 inches (note it could be more but variation in SP creates uncertainty) from Nemo4 and something (like a warnoun) which is game changing vulnerable from a fully loaded Toro at (3+5+6+8+2=24 inches.
Toro topped off by mechanic dudes. Not empower so gets 2 focus from 2 of them. The other dude can do whatever as Nemo may not need to shoot this turn.
Nemo, having previously cast watcher, locomotes the Toro forward 3. He then charges forward 7.
Fiona then activates. She needs a minimum of 4 focus and possibly more for boosting to hit. Tharmacons would "solve" that dilemena
Befuddle #1. This can be used to trigger watcher allowing the Toro to advance 5. Its to hit will be boosted so no need to worry to much about the next thing. That said, our run could fail if the MAT 6 Toro fails to hit on 3 dice against a modle likely butt facing it. Point conceeded.
Befuddle #2 is then cast on another target. Toro's countercharge then triggers. While the movement can be more than 6 inches (because you can charge in a way to get a bit more we will leave it at that). Again, this run can fail because the Toro might not kill the befuddle target. Dice happen.
Toro should be now 3+5+6=14 inches up the field from original position. You now can charge forward 8 with 2 inchs reach.
Note that this can be, if required, extended forward another 2 inches by the Steelhead Ironhead but I am a bit rusty on my merc theme lists to remember if that works well or somehow creates poor situations for Fiona.
A 24 inch threat for a Jack when the armies START 31 inches apart isn't good. If Fiona wins the roll you need to immediately go into bodyblock mode.
Anyone want to argue that Befuddle doesn't needs some wording change?
|
|
|
Post by Soul Samurai on Feb 27, 2020 18:23:18 GMT
Hmm, interesting. I seem to recall some wording in MK2 that when you control an opponent's model it's friendly or something, is there anything like that in MK3 and would it prevent Befuddle from triggering things like Counter-Charge?
|
|
|
Post by sand20go on Feb 27, 2020 18:44:55 GMT
Hmm, interesting. I seem to recall some wording in MK2 that when you control an opponent's model it's friendly or something, is there anything like that in MK3 and would it prevent Befuddle from triggering things like Counter-Charge? Nope. Most spells that do this (a good example is Dominate on Haley2's card) say "....Take Control of...." Which then means countercharge or watcher do NOT trigger (cause you are controlling the model). Befuddle, however, is an exception to this. The ONLY good thing is that, near as I can tell, the Toro does NOT have a way of getting its Mat higher than 6 in such a list (absent a Nemo knock down but I think that is not worth noting). SO you could be looking at really only 2 really good swings (the charge boosted and the Bought second with boost). So ARGUABLY while "cute" the Toro would be dead and its impact, for all those resouces, somewhat limited in impact.
|
|
|
Post by elricaltovilla on Feb 27, 2020 19:12:51 GMT
This is definitely a cool bit of jank but I think you are overselling how easy this is to pull off. It requires a lot of pieces to be in place, and a lot of opportunities for the dice to abandon you. I also don't see how this is like throwing a Drakhun at all, as it doesn't involve power attacks, steady, or a solo. It's chaining nonlinear threat ranges, not taking advantage of rules holes.
|
|
|
Post by sand20go on Feb 27, 2020 19:34:23 GMT
This is definitely a cool bit of jank but I think you are overselling how easy this is to pull off. It requires a lot of pieces to be in place, and a lot of opportunities for the dice to abandon you. I also don't see how this is like throwing a Drakhun at all, as it doesn't involve power attacks, steady, or a solo. It's chaining nonlinear threat ranges, not taking advantage of rules holes. 1) Does it. All I really need is 2 models in SORTA the right place to trigger the Befuddle chain. 2) Throwing a Drakhun wasn't a bug but a feature. PP loved it for about 4 years of MK 1 ;-)
|
|
privvy
Junior Strategist
Formerly The Nomad on PP's forums
Posts: 317
|
Post by privvy on Feb 27, 2020 19:37:44 GMT
This is definitely a cool bit of jank but I think you are overselling how easy this is to pull off. It requires a lot of pieces to be in place, and a lot of opportunities for the dice to abandon you. It's very easy to pull off in terms of targets and hitting the spells. It's more about how practical it would be. Befuddle is a 10" range and Fiona can arc through any FF warrior model in her 14" control range, so there's really nowhere to hide. At FOC7, she has a really good chance to hit anything up to DEF 14, which is most models in the game. Launching a MAT 6 Toro that far really accomplishes nothing most of the time. Maybe it takes out an enemy heavy and then becomes a road block when it's out of position and unsupported. Then you're also looking at awkward charge lanes and placements that might not be possible for models, especially a huge base like Nemo4.
|
|
|
Post by gobber on Feb 27, 2020 20:18:50 GMT
Distance on watcher+befuddle combo #1 seems like it'll limit the need for first turn bodyblocking significantly... as does Befuddle's complete inability to affect warcasters/warlocks and the unlikelihood of an two boosted swings doing anything severe to a heavy. Having an enemy close enough for a toro that hasn't activated yet to countercharge also seems unlikely to happen early. Engaging the toro also shuts things down hard.
On the other hand I think you're also forgetting spatial vortex so watcher trigger range can go to 16" if you do charge nemo, 4" move+3" charge+3" place+6" bubble, with befuddle walking the model from 19" maximum away from nemo's start position). There's also no reason not to add the extra 2" from the ironhead to the toro's range, as opening the gate lets you get a free one in any theme. Also the Toro not killing the second befuddled model that it countercharges for distance isn't much of a problem; as you mentioned you should be turning befuddled models around so you're never in their front arc, leaving the toro free to charge out of the engagement without a free strike during its activation.
|
|
|
Post by mydnight on Feb 27, 2020 21:05:36 GMT
Jack bullets are nice and all but they don't dominate the game. An FoS with Thyra and Sev0 can trigger its own vengeance, teleport on feat, and get warpath for very powerful non-linear threat. Is it dominating anything?
Fiona can do a lot with Befuddle. Stacking watcher and countercharge doesn't seem that beneficial, but having access to both is very nice, particularly watcher, which means you can get a long non linear threat extension on any jack Nemo can bring. Bringing a Toro and another heavy and giving BOTH of them a strong non linear threat extention on different parts of the battlefield is much better than a single bullet.
|
|
|
Post by Soul Samurai on Feb 28, 2020 3:51:53 GMT
This thread reminded me of Binki Bowling. Good times.
|
|
|
Post by gobber on Feb 28, 2020 5:56:46 GMT
This thread reminded me of Binki Bowling. Good times. On that note, I am looking forward to Boss Machorne's smite hijinks. She'll be a fun part of the ash2 assassination run of anastasia's espionage, gorman's autohitting blind and machorne slamming the enemy caster forward if she can, or slamming something (gorman) over them if she can't. She can also bowl to some degree with Macbain (run a freebooter, slam it d6"/2, energizer & jackhammer away), Bart (bit of unexpected range on broadsided swabber drags), or Rahera (same freebooter/swabber feat attacks). Gaspy4/Nemo4, Sam, Widget, and any of the walking convergence heavies (inverter macropummeler?) or crabjacks can pull off similar tricks regardless of caster, and Nemo can port in a free Ironhead to add a 2" place to the combo. Dwarf tossing for gorten feat has always remained possible but Bosun's +d6" has never really been worth the points for that alone esp without his pirates. But there are a far more options now... Anyways, this whole thought train ended in this batshit list that can theoretically launch Gorten from one deployment zone to the other... if he survives. Gorten 3x drillers (or whatever) Nemo4 -Hurricane -Ironhead (summoned) Widget Dez (free) Machorne2 (free) Bosun (free) +19 points of whatever (or more if you pay for dez/bosun) +d6 Machorne combo smite +d6 Bosun pitch +2" ironhead place +d3" dez momentum gun +2d3 hurricane storm emitters +d3 widget ancillary on hurricane If you rolled all sixes that'd be 26" maximum distance before a 4" walk and 10" feat range for 40" in total, which is 1" from the back of the enemy board if you start first. If everything hits the average distance would be around 17" of bowling which is still 31" of feat threat, just reaching the front edge of the enemy deployment zone. Anyway, don't actually do that, but some parts of that combo seem like they might justify themselves on their own. Probably not bosun tho, but machorne and dez definitely seem worthwhile for him. All the slams do combo quite nicely with gorten's rock wall as a cheeky damage buff. Edit: you can't feat turn 1 due to not having solid ground up on gorten (well, you can still throw him that far but he'll be knocked down and unable to feat). threatening the entire board turn 2 is still powerful tho and lets you be more selective about the parts of the combo to include
|
|
|
Post by ankiseth on Feb 28, 2020 14:09:38 GMT
You gotta do it all on the ground though. The fun thing about throwing models was bypassing jamming infantry or problematic terrain.
|
|
zhoe
Junior Strategist
Posts: 254
|
Post by zhoe on Feb 28, 2020 16:59:25 GMT
wehn teh moon is in teh seventh hous and joopiter alines with mars u wil pul dat trik off and luv wil steer teh stars
|
|
Juris
Junior Strategist
Posts: 578
|
Post by Juris on Feb 28, 2020 21:41:17 GMT
This is definitely a cool bit of jank but I think you are overselling how easy this is to pull off. It requires a lot of pieces to be in place, and a lot of opportunities for the dice to abandon you. I also don't see how this is like throwing a Drakhun at all, as it doesn't involve power attacks, steady, or a solo. It's chaining nonlinear threat ranges, not taking advantage of rules holes. The Fiona double befuddle with Nemo4 Toro is not hard to pull off. You just need to hit 2 befuddles (cost 2) with a Focus 7 warcaster with rerolls. I also don't see how this is like "throwing the Drakhun," but it is an 18" movement on a Toro before the Toro even activates. Befuddle is broken and needs to be fixed. Also, Sand20go, FYI, empower doesn't ever care if a model already has focus on it or not; you can always add more with empower (up to the focus limit of the jack).
|
|
Juris
Junior Strategist
Posts: 578
|
Post by Juris on Feb 28, 2020 21:45:46 GMT
...Having an enemy close enough for a toro that hasn't activated yet to countercharge also seems unlikely to happen early. Engaging the toro also shuts things down hard.... Is there a model to Befuddle that is within 16" of Nemo4 to trigger Watcher? Is there also a model that you can befuddle that is within 17" of the Toro? If so, both boxes are checked, proceed with plan "Move Toro up to 18" before it activates."
|
|
|
Post by elricaltovilla on Feb 28, 2020 22:05:11 GMT
...Having an enemy close enough for a toro that hasn't activated yet to countercharge also seems unlikely to happen early. Engaging the toro also shuts things down hard.... Is there a model to Befuddle that is within 16" of Nemo4 to trigger Watcher? Is there also a model that you can befuddle that is within 17" of the Toro? If so, both boxes are checked, proceed with plan "Move Toro up to 18" before it activates." No, the target of befuddle must be within 9" of Nemo and the second target must be within 9" of where the Toro ends up after its watcher movement. Befuddle only moves the target 3" according to warroom.
|
|