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Post by insyderznf on Apr 24, 2017 22:56:40 GMT
Zaal1 always seems like the complete package to me.
Great spells, great built in "buff" for free souls and ability to give out souls, and a very strong feat. Why is he not around more often?
Is it because he dies too easily?
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demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649 
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Post by demonic on Apr 25, 2017 1:18:09 GMT
I've mentioned this before, it's because Kovaas doesn't start on the table. You have to hope someone is dumb enough to unleash him upon the mortal realm. As for all of his other packing, there is a warlock that does it better, regardless of the situation; Hexy, Zaal2, and Mak2 to be more specific.
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regleant
Junior Strategist
Sometimes things go right
Posts: 267
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Post by regleant on Apr 25, 2017 4:26:45 GMT
I actually really like Zaal1. I don't fully agree with demonic about Kovaas - there are typically situations where I can force the opponent's hand. And if the Ancestral / Hakaar isn't killed, then I still have a perfectly good Last Stand target likely fully loaded on souls which, by itself, can kill a Circle heavy. Really, once I started looking at Kovaas as a "nice to have" rather than a "must have", I started doing better. And he comes with his own way to remove enemy upkeeps! I don't see how Hexy, Zaal2, or Mak2 do anything that Zaal1 can do. Zaal1 simply breaks most opponents and allows you to trade up against most opponents. Zaal2 or Makeda2 instead allow the opponent to crash against them and slowly grind the attrition or open an assassination. EDIT: I'm not saying the other Warlocks are bad, I'm just saying that Zaal1 certainly solves problems on the board and shouldn't be discounted.  Worst case, play him a few times and see what you think? |
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demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
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Post by demonic on Apr 25, 2017 5:19:40 GMT
truth, I was just saying why other people are avoiding him. On paper, at least, Zaal1 falls short.
Hexy1 and 2 are better long range spell casters. Zaal2 pulls the exhalted theme much more efficiently. Mak2 is a better infantry spammer. On the other hand, Zaal1 can pull off all 3 in the same list, which they cannot.
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Post by insyderznf on Apr 25, 2017 6:44:55 GMT
I've mentioned this before, it's because Kovaas doesn't start on the table. You have to hope someone is dumb enough to unleash him upon the mortal realm. As for all of his other packing, there is a warlock that does it better, regardless of the situation; Hexy, Zaal2, and Mak2 to be more specific. Cant you just last stand something to bring the kovas out? I mean that something has to attack but it becomes extremely powerful |
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Post by fragpalm on Apr 25, 2017 14:06:00 GMT
I've mentioned this before, it's because Kovaas doesn't start on the table. You have to hope someone is dumb enough to unleash him upon the mortal realm. As for all of his other packing, there is a warlock that does it better, regardless of the situation; Hexy, Zaal2, and Mak2 to be more specific. Cant you just last stand something to bring the kovas out? I mean that something has to attack but it becomes extremely powerful You can indeed Last Stand an AG to make a Kovaas, but it can't activate the turn it's placed on the table. I think it does hurt Zaal's game not to have the Kovaas right off the bat. The threat of it in the first turns adds another layer the opponent has to consider. The old mark 2 tier had it just about right with all its benefits, including having the Kovaas start the game in play. I mained Zaal1 for over a year back then, in tier. It not only attritioned well, but gave Hakaar and the Kovaas so many assassinations I lost count. The errata brought a few things back, and the Immortal UA makes them incredibly strong. Building lists now seems awkward, however; the points must have aligned strangely with all the changes, or the UA brings a cost I'm not willing to pay regardless of the bonuses. Doesn't mean I won't try to make him work because I do think he's an extremely potent warlock. |
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didder
Junior Strategist
Posts: 166
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Post by didder on Apr 25, 2017 14:08:48 GMT
It's not because the kovaas doesn't start on the table, it's because Marketh can't help cycle Last Stand any more.
Also, infantry in general are very low on the food chain right now. Infantry clearers are both very efficient and tend to ignore things like blade shield, krea, or agonizer. Death Stalkers, Mannikins, vent steams, and Stormlance E-leaps for example. Most successful infantry lists in other factions have things like no knockdown tough, self sacrifice, or LOS denial feats.
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zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
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Post by zich on Apr 25, 2017 14:37:54 GMT
I played him a few times in Mk2 and there are some reasons I don't play him as much in Mk3:
1) Upkeep cycling was very important for him.
2) He wants to play a bunch of infantry which is not really a strong playstyle right now (with some exceptions).
3) I don't want to paint 40 more Karax. And every other list I construct seems weaker than just spamming Karax.
4) Skorne has so many interesting things I haven't tried yet.
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Post by bloodsplatterartist on Apr 25, 2017 14:42:05 GMT
I just run him with 2 full units of karax that do nothing but run the first two turns. They jam and die and create 20 rage tokens while buy space for my imortals exalted and BG to get up the board.
Then hakar with last stand one rounds a heavy on my feat.
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Post by sardonicartery on Apr 25, 2017 15:33:55 GMT
I think it's a number of things (others have already mentioned loss of theme benefits and Marketh getting nerfed), but I think it's more to do with meta shift. I can't trade my Last Stand dudes for a jack anymore. Not when there are six more cheap ones right behind it. The trade off numbers no longer work.
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Post by insyderznf on Apr 25, 2017 15:49:47 GMT
I guess the easiest way is just to have something chop up an extoller on turn 1
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granor
Junior Strategist
Posts: 353
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Post by granor on Apr 25, 2017 15:54:46 GMT
I personally tried to build a few lists ran into point issues. Looked at the immortals and even though they are better they still don't seem good and I decided to wait for a theme force to pull these models up. Even getting the immortal UAs for free would help but I was hoping for something to make the AGs better.
I have run the old theme force so I have most of the pieces needed to run just about anything with him. 2X karax with last stand seems like it could maybe work but most game nights I am staring down 4-6 jacks and I don't see how I can trade up on that kind of list.
Do note I have not run anything above. These comments are dojo only.
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regleant
Junior Strategist
Sometimes things go right
Posts: 267
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Post by regleant on Apr 25, 2017 16:56:03 GMT
but I think it's more to do with meta shift. I can't trade my Last Stand dudes for a jack anymore. Not when there are six more cheap ones right behind it. The trade off numbers no longer work. Unfortunately I found this same thing. Zaal1 worked great for many things up until this point. |
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skormedlover87
Junior Strategist
Desperately searching for days off to game...
Posts: 517
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Post by skormedlover87 on Apr 25, 2017 17:00:59 GMT
I get great mileage out of him with Swordsmen and Slingers. Under perfect conditions, feat + Last Stand + mini-feat, jacks melt. 3 swordsmen only to kill off any jack. Even without feat, they do damn good work. I also appreciate how he has good personal power against some casters who usually don't take much chip damage. I usually pair him with a Raider and Shaman. Lots of flexibility in what you take shots at. I also really appreciate his ability to ignore LoS for buff spells, it's something I've screwed myself on more than once.
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Post by insyderznf on Apr 25, 2017 17:40:01 GMT
I personally tried to build a few lists ran into point issues. Looked at the immortals and even though they are better they still don't seem good and I decided to wait for a theme force to pull these models up. Even getting the immortal UAs for free would help but I was hoping for something to make the AGs better. I have run the old theme force so I have most of the pieces needed to run just about anything with him. 2X karax with last stand seems like it could maybe work but most game nights I am staring down 4-6 jacks and I don't see how I can trade up on that kind of list. Do note I have not run anything above. These comments are dojo only. Im curious to see what his theme is going to allow when we get it the first half of 2019 and plastic immortals have been released. Other factions get high point models for free so why not get hakaar and the ags for free with x number of points in immortals. |
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Worst case, play him a few times and see what you think?
